Ideas to help promote dueling in DoM.

[Vanion Shadowcast]

I didn't really suggest details. First off, I'd go with a 14 day grace period for defending Archmages.

If you're suggesting that Mages are unable to find duels because nobody wants to duel mages (I've never experienced this, personally), then there's really no answer to this conundrum, is there? If people won't play DoM because they don't like the other players there, then no number of special tournaments would change that, would it? Not that I believe that either of those things are true to the extent where DoM's activity couldn't be improved.

That sort of argument's a straw-man. I can only make logical suggestions and hope folks want to actually play the game when they are encouraged to do so. After all, what else can anyone do?

[Spell]

I didn't really suggest details. First off, I'd go with a 14 day grace period for defending Archmages.

If you're suggesting that Mages are unable to find duels because nobody wants to duel mages (I've never experienced this, personally), then there's really no answer to this conundrum, is there? If people won't play DoM because they don't like the other players there, then no number of special tournaments would change that, would it? Not that I believe that either of those things are true to the extent where DoM's activity couldn't be improved.

That sort of argument's a straw-man. I can only make logical suggestions and hope folks want to actually play the game when they are encouraged to do so. After all, what else can anyone do?

I assumed 30 day grace since that's already in play for the normal Keepers towers. Sorry if I came off sounding jerkish or anything .

[Hope]

If people won't play DoM because they don't like the other players there, then no number of special tournaments would change that, would it? Not that I believe that either of those things are true to the extent where DoM's activity couldn't be improved.
That sort of argument's a straw-man.

I think that this thread is slightly canting towards another region with this. I'd just like to point out that these two factors aren't straw-man because: it's a fact. Things can only really be gauged well when people are willing to give feedback and I haven't really seen many anecdotal entries for why someone might actually suggest why DoM activity might be slipping. For me? That's certainly the case. I typically wait for Fight Nights if I want to duel DoM. Would an event much like IFL but for Magic inspire me to give it some more attention and effort? Absolutely. An event like this spawns hopefully more players to come out and gives a much different environment than the one that is currently in place. Let's keep moving forward with our posts; a lot of the suggestions that Vanion and Jesse have been bouncing back and forth seem thought-provoking and worth a shot. Let's not exclude possibilities because not enough people have come out to openly admit to them, and I think additional opportunities for a mixing pot of DoM duelists would definitely arouse more interest

[LadyAjaBird]

I've sort of stayed out of this cause it's really not a simple fix one way or the other.

Balance is key.
DoM (Duels in general) is about duels, but it's also about RP.

Someone who hasn't tried dueling before, may come to hang out just to see why all the other people are hanging out there. For a while, they may simply choose to hang out and play. After some time has gone by and they feel more comfortable in the room, they may give dueling a try.

Now. I'm in the firm belief that if a room is positive and friendly, then the people will want to come and hang out.

In real life, you wouldn't want to hang out with negative, rude people. Why would you want to do it for your play time? I know I don't.

As for events, tournaments and titles. Those can add to the experience, but you have to allow a space for someone just getting into a sport some leeway to learn it. Get a feel for it, decide they like it. Someone new to a sport isn't going to care about events and such. They're going to be working on learning the moves. How they work.

I myself, do not duel magic often. But once, participated in a Megacast, which while I had massive sympathy for the caller because no way can that be easy! I also had a great time. Everyone seemed to be.

Role Play- Dueling. Has to be cooperative. Or NONE of it works.

So. I shall continue to have Aja do Taco Tuesdays. All are welcome to participate or not. It's just a little something for characters to do while watching the duels, and deciding if they would like to give it a try.

If others could help out by not insulting/belittling etc other characters, that would be great.

And that's my two cents. For what ever it's worth.

[Hope]

I'm going to be rather blunt with some of these facts as to preserve the consideration to other players but I'm going to be pretty straight forward with my points.

In the past 15 weeks, including this current, the DoM sport has seen 3 new players in total try it out. None of these 3 have had rank and as one of the three I feel this may be an important question to ask. With the lowest recorded activity of the 3 sports and with virtually no draw to new duelists: do the majority of current active duelists FEEL there is a problem?

Low activity can be assumed to be a direct correlation to low interest. Low interest can be of the sport or of the venue; it's kind of moot for me to assume I know which is more prevalent, as it would be for anyone else to likewise. There have been a few good suggestions in the thread but there has been some regressive finger pointing as well. It's best not to focus on that since nothing good will come of it.

Food for thought: there's no need to beat around the bush when it comes to a lot of the 'belittling' discussion. There's a few people who are branded pretty notoriously for this. It's a very minute minority that is incredibly new to the isle and I feel it's a little off-base to assume that is the honest culprit behind the past half year of recorded slumps in activity. Historically? Good numbers for DoM- but comparatively to the other two sports? The players are active on this website. Some people don't like the sport, that's fine. The means for activity is here though and speaking as one of the THREE, yes, THREE new faces in 15 weeks: I'm not sure people really see this as a problem. The majority of the names that I see in the Isle have abstained from posting in this thread entirely, let alone asking what can be done to make the venue more appealing. What I have seen are people telling other people to play nice in the sandbox. Will that help? That'd help those who have been scorned lately, and that is important, respect among players in a community so tightly knit as this one is. Is it the remedy to the problem? No, no it's not.

[Vanion Shadowcast]

This thread's instigated a handful of upcoming, unique DoM events that will be sure to draw a good crowd of DoM players. That's great.

So, a new suggestion of what to focus on here:

Q) Why don't the majority of long-term, veteran players in the community play DoM when they do play the other sports? I'm looking at players like Jake, Napoleon, G'nort, Teagan, Kalamere, Cassius, Britania, Jaycy, Bane, Koyliak, etc.

A) I'm sure that there are a variety of reasons here. I'll break down the ones that I hear most often.

- "My characters don't do magic". That's fair. Some folks aren't interested in inventing a brand new character just to do DoM, only because their primary character(s) don't do magic. This was the case for me with Rakeesh. More recently, I've started doing DoM with him and dueling like a Paladin that uses typical, minor holy-type magics. But some characters don't even have that.

- "The matrix doesn't make any logical sense to me." I hear this sometimes. People don't like that you have to jump through weird logical hoops to explain things like why REF beats MS, or why FT beats MS, or why NR and GF is a trade. This doesn't bother me so much, because I've always adopted the idea that the esoteric move list for DoM can be pretty much whatever you WANT it to be. That's actually my favorite thing about it. FT for Rakeesh might be a mighty, liontaur roar. For Vanion? He might raise a zombie that explodes out of the ground behind his opponent and tries to grapple/bite them. I think if folks allow the DoM move-set to just be a very general list of suggestions, they can find a lot of unique flavor and roleplay. This is the absolute best thing about DoM, and once you allow that into your process, you won't let the weird IC logic of the matrix bother you anymore.

- "The matrix is broken." I hear this one probably the most from other vets. It's also the one that I tend to agree with more than the others. That said, it's just a matrix. It's easily fixed, and DoM's proven willing to make adjustments to its matrix more than any other sports, which is part of why it's numbers are improving over time.


But what other things keep the veterans away? I'd like to hear from more of those folks, because IMO, if the veterans were active on the Isle -- it would create more SLs, more rivalries, and draw more people to DoM in general.

[Jaycy Ashleana]

I don't play in DoM because I don't like DoM.

I don't really care for the setting. I'm not interested in DoM type magic-themed SLs that happen on the Isle, even though most - actually, all - of my characters have magic.

I don't play in DoM because the people I like playing with don't play in DoM. I only wander in if I'm really desperate to play or I see someone I really want to play with. To answer an earlier question, I wouldn't necessarily play in DoM if it were the only game in town; I'd be more likely to just not play.

I don't like trying to RP the moves. Trying to think of how my characters would do a certain move takes all the fun out of it for me. I don't like the matrix. I don't like it enough that I'll never seriously make a run at the one accomplishment I've wanted forever, the Triple Crown, even though I sometimes say I'm going to.

I am NOT saying DoM is broken or needs to be changed. I'm just not a DoM player and don't ever see myself being one.

[PrlUnicorn]

- "My characters don't do magic". That's fair. Some folks aren't interested in inventing a brand new character just to do DoM, only because their primary character(s) don't do magic. This was the case for me with Rakeesh. More recently, I've started doing DoM with him and dueling like a Paladin that uses typical, minor holy-type magics. But some characters don't even have that.

Small point to address here. A few years ago, a rack of magical aids was introduced like wands and cards to allow characters without innate magic to participate. Perhaps expanding on and advertising them will help?

[Vanion Shadowcast]

- "My characters don't do magic". That's fair. Some folks aren't interested in inventing a brand new character just to do DoM, only because their primary character(s) don't do magic. This was the case for me with Rakeesh. More recently, I've started doing DoM with him and dueling like a Paladin that uses typical, minor holy-type magics. But some characters don't even have that.

Small point to address here. A few years ago, a rack of magical aids was introduced like wands and cards to allow characters without innate magic to participate. Perhaps expanding on and advertising them will help?

It certainly could. A lot of folks have taken this route in the past.

[Jake]

- "My characters don't do magic". That's fair. Some folks aren't interested in inventing a brand new character just to do DoM, only because their primary character(s) don't do magic. This was the case for me with Rakeesh. More recently, I've started doing DoM with him and dueling like a Paladin that uses typical, minor holy-type magics. But some characters don't even have that.

Small point to address here. A few years ago, a rack of magical aids was introduced like wands and cards to allow characters without innate magic to participate. Perhaps expanding on and advertising them will help?

It wouldn't for me.

In fact, wands/rings/magic-items of one sort or another have been used/available since the early play-testing of DoM. If there were records from that time, you'd even see Jake on that list.

But, magic is just something that doesn't fit the character of Jake, innate or magic-item derived. Jake will never be a regular in DoM, regardless of whether there are magic-items.

[Jake]

Q) Why don't the majority of long-term, veteran players in the community play DoM when they do play the other sports? I'm looking at players like Jake, Napoleon, G'nort, Teagan, Kalamere, Cassius, Britania, Jaycy, Bane, Koyliak, etc.

Well...since you named me.

- "My characters don't do magic". ...

This is one of the reasons Jake won't be a regular of DoM. But wouldn't solely stop me from taking part in DoM. I have played characters that used magic, and in fact created Mojo Goblin way back in the day in order to take part.

- "The matrix doesn't make any logical sense to me." I hear this sometimes. People don't like that you have to jump through weird logical hoops to explain things like why REF beats MS, or why FT beats MS, or why NR and GF is a trade. This doesn't bother me so much, because I've always adopted the idea that the esoteric move list for DoM can be pretty much whatever you WANT it to be. That's actually my favorite thing about it. FT for Rakeesh might be a mighty, liontaur roar. For Vanion? He might raise a zombie that explodes out of the ground behind his opponent and tries to grapple/bite them. I think if folks allow the DoM move-set to just be a very general list of suggestions, they can find a lot of unique flavor and roleplay. This is the absolute best thing about DoM, and once you allow that into your process, you won't let the weird IC logic of the matrix bother you anymore.

This is part of why I don't play in DoM. The Fear Touch/Foul Fog interactions make little sense to me. I don't understand why one spell is faster than another spell, but slower than another, but the latter spell is beat by the first spell. There are some interactions that just don't make sense to me.

And just what the heck is Immolation supposed to be? Why does lighting yourself on fire work against anything? Maybe it's just badly named. But I think that's part of the problem. In DoF and DoS, at least the name of the move gives you some idea of what's happening, which I think is beneficial for people just trying to learn the matrix. The name provides a visual clue of what's happening. When the name doesn't provide a visual clue, it's harder to understand, and harder to picture why this move beats that move.

- "The matrix is broken." I hear this one probably the most from other vets. It's also the one that I tend to agree with more than the others. That said, it's just a matrix. It's easily fixed, and DoM's proven willing to make adjustments to its matrix more than any other sports, which is part of why it's numbers are improving over time.

I think there are some problems with the matrix. Meteor Swarm looks nearly useless. Nether Ray seems hopelessly overpowered. Granted, I don't play there much, and there are regulars who tell me MS is still useful (somehow...I guess like Slash maybe). I can only defer to the more experienced DoM players who tell me it's not so bad.

Heck, Hook is also very weak in DoF, but I feel like the overall DoF matrix works pretty well. And when the Slugfest rules are used, I like Hook/UpperCut/SpinKick more. Risky, but with a bigger payoff. Which strikes me as appropriate.

So...yeah. *I* think there's still some room for improvement in the DoM matrix, but that's just one opinion.

However, since we're still trying to figure out if we can fix the chatroom code, this one is much harder to fix. We can tweak the matrix, but we aren't (at the moment) able to fix chatroom tools to accommodate.

But what other things keep the veterans away? I'd like to hear from more of those folks, because IMO, if the veterans were active on the Isle -- it would create more SLs, more rivalries, and draw more people to DoM in general.

This touches on so much stuff....and some of this is so long in the past that it's not really relevant any more, but I'll touch on it for historical purposes.

Back when DoF and DoM were both fledgling matrices, I was the Coord for DoF and Connor was Coord for DoM. As it happens, Connor and I used to chat back and forth quite often. Connor was the first to do up a webpage for (DoM) histories. And soon after I created the first webpage for DoF history stuff. Klytus wasn't around during this period. Klytus, like Panth, had more or less turned over nurturing their respective creations to other people.

At some point, folks felt the basic six spells were kinda broken, and the matrix needed some updating. So some someone started up suggesting new spells, like Sandstorm. Connor had stepped down at this point, and DoM leadership had been assumed by someone else. I suggested to the then DoM person "well, if you are going to look at new spells/matrix stuff, you might want to include the original creator of the matrix." Which they did, and Klytus came back and helped rejigger the matrix, and also created the backstory for Twilight Island, created the Keepers etc.

It was an odd time. I went from being an often collaborator with Connor about stuff, to being completely outside of everything DoM. I don't know if the folks who took over from DoM even knew that Connor and I conferred about stuff.

So...all of a sudden, DoM has Keepers that fall along Elemental lines, which left a bad taste in my mouth. Since the Opals had already gone the Elemental theme.

It was my opinion that DoM could have chosen to go a different route.

Mojo stopped appearing on the Island around that time. Between the matrix changes, the Elemental Keepers, and the change in coordinators, I didn't really feel like taking part in DoM during that time period.

Mind you...this is all water under the bridge. That was several Coords ago...and I agree with Vanion that recent DoM Coords have been much more open to change, and have actively sought ways to make DoM better. Props to them for that, and to everyone else who has tried to make DoM more interesting in recent years.

Still...I do wish the Keepers didn't so closely parallel the Opals.

There are other reasons I was never a regular of DoM as well. Things like being on the orphan/bad dueling nights of the week. Fight Night largely fixes that, and that's why I am a huge proponent of Fight Night (it also benefits DoF).

Ultimately, I'd like the matrix to make more sense. "It's just magic," has never been a good reason to me. The logic behind interactions should make some kind of predictable sense. From logical interactions, you can extrapolate new stuff. If this, and also that, then this should be true too. When it's just "because it just works that way" has always been a frustrating answer to me. (I have this same problem with magic systems in table-top games.)

[Shadowlord]

Alot of what Jake says rings true to me, as I've talked with players who had similar negative associations in the past and now don't really want to have anything to do with DoM. I do understand that.

As far as the Keepers being Elemental, well. The four 'elements' are a major aspect to real-life Western magical theory, for those who believe in that sort of thing. I do not, but I'm fairly sure Klytus had this in mind when designing those Towers.

And I've never subscribed to the idea that two sports, or even three, can't have some similarities. We give out achievements for being titled in multiple sports, and the DoF/DoM combined achievements (Pyro Master, etc) are pretty cool to me.

Just my two cents there!

[Jake]

As far as the Keepers being Elemental, well. The four elements are a major aspect to real-life magical theory, for those who believe in that sort of thing. I do not, but I'm fairly sure Klytus had this in mind when designing those Towers.

And I've never subscribed to the idea that two sports, or even three, can't have some similarities. We give out achievements for being titled in multiple sports, and the DoF/DoM combined achievements (Pyro Master, etc) are pretty cool to me.

I am sure he did. It was still frustrating.

And DoM is sort of on the verge of doing it again. If the Light/Dark discussions continue as it looks like they might, it sounds like there might be a new "Spirit Tower" in the works. And that's what the 5th Opal is.

I find that frustrating on a couple of levels. One, I feel like, yes, the elements are a common theme in magic, but it wouldn't have taken that much effort to come up with something that didn't encroach on an already used theme. And the more the two run in parallel, the more it prevents them changing/mutating in new different directions without dragging the other along. There's a ... gravity ... between the two sports now that leads people do exactly what you're talking about. "If I've got the one title in this sport, I should go grab the corresponding title in that sport." I feel like that constricts their (DoF and DoM) opportunities for new directions.

Again...that's my opinion. I get that many people think it's cool. It's far too late for DoM (or DoF) to change themes. There's a LOT of invested history, and some great storytelling that's happened, that make changing either DoF or DoM away from the elemental themes impractical/undesirable.

Part of my explanation is for Vanion's benefit to answer why *I* stayed away from DoM.

[Shadowlord]

As far as the Keepers being Elemental, well. The four elements are a major aspect to real-life magical theory, for those who believe in that sort of thing. I do not, but I'm fairly sure Klytus had this in mind when designing those Towers.

And I've never subscribed to the idea that two sports, or even three, can't have some similarities. We give out achievements for being titled in multiple sports, and the DoF/DoM combined achievements (Pyro Master, etc) are pretty cool to me.

I am sure he did. It was still frustrating.

And DoM is sort of on the verge of doing it again. If the Light/Dark discussions continue as it looks like they might, it sounds like there might be a new "Spirit Tower" in the works. And that's what the 5th Opal is.

I find that frustrating on a couple of levels. One, I feel like, yes, the elements are a common theme in magic, but it wouldn't have taken that much effort to come up with something that didn't encroach on an already used theme. And the more the two run in parallel, the more it prevents them changing/mutating in new different directions without dragging the other along. There's a ... gravity ... between the two sports now that leads people do exactly what you're talking about. "If I've got the one title in this sport, I should go grab the corresponding title in that sport." I feel like that constricts their (DoF and DoM) opportunities for new directions.

Again...that's my opinion. I get that many people think it's cool. It's far too late for DoM (or DoF) to change themes. There's a LOT of invested history, and some great storytelling that's happened, that make changing either DoF or DoM away from the elemental themes impractical/undesirable.

Part of my explanation is for Vanion's benefit to answer why *I* stayed away from DoM.

This does seem to be part of the divide; some people want more similarity, some want more difference, between the sports. As to the Spirit Tower, I don't think anyone was consciously thinking of ShadoWeaver (though I get where you're going there) but more just trying to be logical to the pre-established theme.

But not all of us are necessarily achievement motivated. I play Shadow in DoM because it's a good character fit, in the same way that it's a bad fit for others. I have an alt or two I've played that have never nor would ever do magic.

There's alot to be said for being true to your character concept, though I don't want to stray from the topic at hand too much.

What I'm seeing, ultimately, is that matrix balance issues have alot to do with the problems some people have with DoM, and I think that's very fixable. It's already been done on a large scale at least twice that I know of.

[Napoleon Bonarat]

Why don't I play in DOM?

1. I'm still learning DOF. I know the DOS matrix like the back of my hand (I should, since I'm going on 19 years playing it). I've only really been playing DOF for about a year. I did play in IFL season 2, and played some in 2008 (I think that's when I got my first Claw). But my really delving into the mechanics and nuances has only been for about a year.

I learn slow. I don't really want to learn another matrix right now. I did dabble in DOM during Tour of Rhydin, and I think in Duel Assassin. Maybe once I get Napoleon to Emerald (the pressure!) I'll look at DOM in more depth.

2. I will rarely show up on RDI side to play. I don't even think about it most of the time. I'm ROH, forever ROH. I check RDI only to see if there's something new on the Rhydin Post. Yeah, sometimes I show up on the RDI nights, but I have to be pretty bored. I am admittedly an ROH snob. I like SEB (DOF) nights though, when I can make them.

3. I don't know that I like the exclusiveness/separateness of Twilight Isle. It's not part of Rhydin, if I remember right. That always bugged me.

4. I can't reconcile my main characters dueling with magic. My magic using characters take magic very seriously and don't think it's proper to use magic for gaming. My non-magic characters have no use for the game. I don't really play spell casters in tabletop gaming! Napoleon and Kattria are the only two characters I've left dabble in DOM, and I'll still venture in for some fun events like the one coming up against the beastie.

5. The rotating Keepers because of constant challenges by the same few people devalues the titles, and yet...we're looking to add more in an environment that has a small player pool to begin with? It doesn't work in economics, how can that work here? I'd love to know how many people (not characters) actually play here. If the number is less than 20-30, four keepers are enough.

One thing I DO like about DOM is how one can be Archmage. You SHOULD have to work hard for the title: outmagic the other mages, then outmagic the current AM, and spend the cycle clearly at the top of the lists. THAT title is meaningful to me. I also like this aspect of how to be the Diamond. No challenges, no interventions, no tests, no waiving grace. You get it by beating up all the other Emeralds on one night once per cycle. Another meaningful, lasting title. But the way keepers and opals rotate so fast today, they don't really seem very meaningful. Just something elseo to tick off the bucket list.

Maybe we could make a couple "King of the Hill" titles for each sport that has no grace, no challenge limits, no SOA or standings requirement, no RP element, just require that the duel has to be fought within a week to satisfy those that can't wait to challenge and be challenged. Make achievements such as "hold King of the Hill for four weeks" "win 10 KotH challenges" "defend against 4 or more challengers" etc. That should satisfy the needs of the hardcore, gamer-focused players.


6. Jake touched on this on the moves vs. moves and how sometimes it gets you a point, sometimes half a point. Sometimes the result of one move against the other makes no sense to me, and I can't see a way to roleplay sense into it. So when I try to rationalize the matrix, I just can't do it. I'd pretty much have to make up my own rationales in my head, and I'm not up for it right now.


Saying all of that, I appreciate the work DOM leaders and community have done to make DOM more approachable. I think they've succeeded in increasing numbers. I just don't know if I'm ready to become a DOM regular yet. We'll see how I feel after taking on the beastie.

I know this wasn't very positive, but that's mostly why I don't have interest in DOM or the environment. I like the events, and I especially like if events can benefit my WOL standings record.