New Dueler's Perspective

[Luna Eva]

There are discussions going on in two different places now, but neither of those places seemed appropriate for this post.

Almost exactly a year ago, I drafted what I called a "New Fighter's Rant." I was too afraid to post it. I was still new in the community, and the one time I had spoken up on the boards on an OOC matter, I had been swiftly rebuffed by veteran duelers. But reading it over, now, all of the same issues are still there and relevant, and have been raised in the other threads. I’m still afraid to post this now, but I’m going to try and hope for the best.

Primarily I was concerned with: 1) the difficulty of improving and advancing when I could not get a variety of regulation duels and was constantly facing the same few people or their alts; 2) the feeling of being exploited for wins or activity duels; 3) that mentorship was offered as a false solution (since no one actually wanted to put in the time to teach OOC); 4) feeling unwelcome in team events; 5) that low ranks tournaments intended to help new duelers were heavily attended by alts; and last, and really most important was 6) the constant dismissal of my frustrations by veteran duelers.

Since I wrote about the above problems, only two things have changed for me: I've been mentored by someone who was actually interested in OOC helping me learn and grow as a duelist and I have massively improved as a result; and also, I'm now significantly better at identifying alts so I rarely fight people without knowing the player behind it which saves me from the bad feelings that came from finding out who it was later.

But I still feel the same way about pretty much all of it. I have no new perspective, even though I’m now two years into dueling and much better at it than I was before. In fact, the sense of futility I used to feel has now solidified. I see no reason to pursue titles when the same few people seem to be trading them over and over. And if I want to have fun and support other duelers during sparsely attended regulation, I can’t be precious with my own rank (I just barely reached Emerald for the second time a week ago).

So in the other thread, Kheldar asked if I had ideas to help the situation. Here are some ideas:

1) As a community, stop denying our individual roles in making new duelers feel exploited:

You want to fight as a low-ranked alt cause it’s more fun for you. That’s fine. But maybe you should consider giving a heads up to the new dueler who has lost to you five times under your more titled names. Because that person is eventually going to find out about your alts, and how many times they have really lost to you and it’s not going to feel good to them.

This is not something that I alone experienced, but an experience that was repeated to me by others, including friends on the RDI side who tried dueling and gave up.

2) Ask that no alts attend the low-ranks tournaments:

I know people think that no one will attend the low rank tournaments if alts aren’t allowed. But people have stopped attending them because they know they’re just going to face a bunch of Warlord or Emerald alts. I also don’t encourage my RDI side friends to participate because it’s not truly a low-ranks tournament (see above). Plus the advantages the low-ranks tournaments offer to help low-ranked fighters sometimes disappear when they're earned by an alt who stops showing up for regulation once the tournament is over.

I know that this is not how it was when you were coming up and you might feel that you should be allowed to participate in any tournament you want to. I understand your feeling of unfairness, but the community is struggling now and I’m asking you to make this sacrifice to improve the new-dueler experience.

3) Let fighters keep their wins from the PC tournament.

Tournaments are now one of the rare heavily attended nights, and this is an opportunity for new duelers to fight people they might not have faced before and pick up some wins that could help them with their record. Improved records are encouraging and make people want to keep showing up.

4) Save a spot on your team for a new dueler.

I know it’s fun to fight only with your friends in team tournaments, but you never know if that new dueler with potential could be your next new friend. Instead of seeing them as a drag on your team, maybe see them as someone you can teach and whose success you can share in.

5) Demonstrate your interest in new duelers.

Show up to regulation. Roleplay. Do more than get in your activity duel to maintain your title. IM them and ask them how they’re doing OOC. Offer encouragement.

6) A leadership presence from the coordinators.

I know we ask a lot, A LOT, from coordinators. I’m sure I don’t even know what a quarter of the issues facing the coordinators are and how much work you do. But back when I first started dueling here, I posted asking about keeping my wins from the PC tournament, and the only people who responded were other duelers. It would have been great to get a response from a coordinator, even if the response was ‘no.’ ‘No’ can be encouraging when it’s validating. For example, “We know ranking up is hard but keep at it. This is not a change we’re planning to make right now, but we’ll keep it in mind for the future.”

Plus, like it or not, people look up to coordinators to emulate their behavior. Your presence in the room adds a certain validation to the room that no one else has.

7) Help snowball regulation. HELP REGULATION.

Sometimes all it takes to build a dueling crowd in regulation is a few people coming into the room. You don’t have to fight if you don’t want to, but if you see a slow regulation night and you can at least lurk on it while you do other things, give that a try. It might work and it might help.

Simply put, new duelers can’t improve if there’s no one to fight. And they can’t feel good if they keep losing to the same veterans over and over again.

8 ) No more sacred cows.

I know you all have been here forever. But the hands down, hardest part to being new is expressing frustration and being told OVER AND OVER that it was the same or worse for you. That is not encouraging. Encouraging, is "I know it's hard, but you can do it. The PC is coming up soon, you should try for that!" or "Yeah, I know it can be hard to find fights, but we're really working on ways to bring in new people. What would be fun for you?"

It is hard to make suggestions about how the system could be improved and be told "they'll never make that change." Or the thinly veiled equivalent of "quit your whining." This is reinforced when veterans come out of the woodwork to answer you and tell you why it was decided not to do that in 2005 or 2012 or 2014, when you've never seen these people in play before. I don't need to hear how much easier it is now than it was when you were starting up. I get it. Wins are zeroed out now. But were there more duelers when you were fighting?

You may all be right, that it was just as hard for you as it is now if not harder. But that's not a helpful thing for a new dueler to hear. It's not encouraging. You can say that new duelers shouldn't be so sensitive all you want, but what you wind up with is a selfish dueling culture that is driving away people who show interest.

So dueling is down overall. There are two parts to addressing that problem, one being how do we attract new players to the site to begin with. I’d love to participate in that separate but related conversation, (advertising externally, etc.). But the other half is addressing problems new people face once we get them in the door. Those are the problems I’m talking about here.

I don't even expect any of the suggestions I'm making to actually happen. There may be truly excellent reasons why they shouldn't. But I hope people will at least be able to acknowledge where I'm coming from and that these are experiences and concerns shared by a lot of new duelers. I can't stress enough how important validation is. I am bracing for everyone to jump in with their big old NO and their arguments for why it shouldn't be this way or why these things aren't a problem. All I ask is that you at least acknowledge that this is how I feel about it, that these feelings are shared by others, even you wish I and we did not feel that way.

Are these the reasons why we’re not converting high league participation to high regulation participation? I don’t know. Over the past two years, I’ve made my own efforts to support and recruit new duelers to regulation, with admittedly little success. In part because of the issues above, but probably for other reasons too. I’d like to keep trying. And I’d like to hope I’m not trying by myself.

[Andrea Anderson]

I recall the PC thread you started ( btw if anyone wants to read it - it's in the same folder as this post ). It gained pretty much all positive responses.

As for everything else, I really can't respond with much. I've tried mentoring multiple new players and in the end they never really stick around due to real life commitments, or they are being currently mentored by others so all I'm usually doing is spring boarding tips with them or practicing. Though if anyone is interested in a mentee spot, I have tons of spots available.

If you're a ranked player and feel the person you're fighting might be new, then it might be a good idea to say something along the lines IC as, "Oh, hey. I've never seen you around. Do you have rank?" they answer and you can play it off as "No disrespect, but if you'd like me to hold back and fight at your level then I'm fine with it." If they seem confused, a nice PM explaining what your character meant could go a long way. I find my best fights are usually with low rank or new players that take up my offer, it gives you - as a ranked player - a shot to get out of your comfort zone and play a different game than normal.

I know it's not for everyone, some are of the idea that you earned the rank so you will use it; but then the option of maybe not targeting low ranks for a quick and easy duel would be the best idea.

[Sabine]

I love everything you said Eva and experienced many of those same thoughts and feelings in the 1.5 years I've been dueling now. (I dueled MAYBE 5 times back around 2009/2010)

I hear the same things from non-duelist friends who I try to recruit or from low level duelists.

I would love to see more tournaments and events designed for low level players to be truly low level players and not low levels alts. I don't know how we can do that though without asking people to out themselves or just going on an honor system.

I have had people tell me "I'm not doing that tournament because so and so will just show up on an alt and win anyway."

I have won Panther's Claw now. I do not intent to compete in it again any time soon because I want to give others a chance. (I don't even know if you can win again on the same character...) I have not gone above Emerald in Fists and have only recently began to climb back up after losing all my rank in DoF.

I don't expect others to do what I do. That is up to them. It's just how I feel and it's a small thing I can do to make others not feel intimidated about an event.

I don't expect ranked people to not fight either and not to have alts. Honestly, the best feeling IS when as a newb I was able to beat some of the best fighters here. It was so cool. It also sucked a lot losing to them 20 times before that.

I don't know what the answers are. I am working on some things to try and help resolve some of these concerns. I will do my part to welcome others, answer questions, and share tips.

If anything, thank you for your contributions Eva and for postings your concerns.

[DUEL Kheldar]

I remember the thread too. I even vaguely remember talking with Matt about it. So the fact I failed to respond is just a dropping of the ball on my part, I apologize.

I've never liked giving out "free" wins, and try and prefer to have the prize of the tournament be the only prize. To me having something on the line makes things more compelling. That's not to say I'm right, or that we can't consider doing other things (we just held a no loss night after all).

I read the rest and will get to it, but wanted to make sure to at least address this failing asap.

[Lirssa Sarengrave]

I appreciate Eva speaking up and presenting the challenges she has faced and that others have spoken to her about facing when new to dueling.

The few people I speak with OOC know my own personal philosophy on dueling, so I will only be touching on one particular point. I do not want people to come back at Eva with issues about her having anonymous sources for these challenges to dueling.

Low rank tournaments should be for true new duelers, or I'll even grant maybe the caveat of duelers who have not been around for X amount of years (5 maybe?). I am NOT good at knowing peoples alts, and finding out later that Person A won the low rank tournament has been OL 3 times or Diamond six times boggles my mind. Whether we like to believe this or not, but dueling inherently blends OOC and IC. No matter what name you are on, you are using your experience to make the best choices for each round. I would like to ask that the community give this a try for a time and be honest to not enter a tournament meant for new duelists when you are not. What's the number? What would be considered new? I leave that to those who have been around longer and have the ability to say when the transition of experience happens.

[DemiBob]

Just a note:

There are not many truly new duelers right now and it's impossible to verify that people are not just on alts and lying.

[Lirssa Sarengrave]

I believe that is the major point trying to be made. Asking people to rise to the better of human nature and be honest. Then, we might actually get some new duelers who are currently avoiding it because low ranked tournaments have several veterans on alts.

[PrlUnicorn]

I try to tell people that are having a hard time at winning to keep working at it. Also, to stop worrying about winning for a while and enjoy other aspects of the duels. Letting a character socialize can build relationships, be it a friendly rivalry or long term friendship. It's building those bridges that can help a new player along in things like being invited to join a team.

As far as the coordinators being present, this might not be popular, but I think it needs to be said. I think some people forget that when engaged in live play, the coordinators are also there to have some fun and enjoy a bit of RP. If an issue can wait, a PM, e-mail, or Contact US can be sent to deal with it. Some might take the attitude of but that's their job. What isn't considered is that they might have five or six people needing lengthy answers clamoring for their attention at once in IMs. Each of those people think their problem is more important that anyone else's. Bottom line is their time needs to be respected, give them time to mingle.

Edited to add:
Regarding lower ranks tournaments, they aren't for new people per se. They are for lower ranks. I get the point being made, I really do. Since the achievement system was put in place, it's sometimes a matter of a player putting their alt in a tournament with the goal of getting that Talon of Redwin or Panther's Claw achievement completed.

[Ducii]

Am I the only low-ranking/new-ish dueler who doesn't care about losing? I know that several players have always kindly offered to duel at rank when I've dueled/mentioned that I'm kind of new (IC and OOC), but I honestly don't care. Sometimes it's a bummer to lose all the time, but I don't mind. I'm there for the fun and interaction aspect, not to make rank. I realize as I'm typing this that it's probably not the normal perspective, but I never look up a person's rank when I duel. I usually try to find someone I don't recognize to duel just to change things up when I recognize most of the faces. Being such a low rank has *never* prevented me from wanting to duel when others are higher rank. I've only done team dueling once, which was IFL last year, but being new was never discouraging for me. All of my teammates were plenty helpful and always offered to help me 'train' so to speak. It was a really enlightening and uplifting experience for me, tbh.

[Lirssa Sarengrave]

No, Duci, you are not the only one. There are others who feel the same way.

But let me put this another way: Why have a tournament for lower rank individuals (possibly newer duelers) if half of them will be alts of veterans? And I'm asking because I really don't know why it was created, and knowing that might help me understand why having a new alt just to take part in a tournament is "a thing."

Was it created to encourage new duelers? Was it created to earn a prize? Was it created to just have another tournament?

But this is not the only issue that Eva brought up, so I'm looking forward to all the discussion on this and other things that are known to discourage new duelers.

[Rakeesh]

No, Duci, you are not the only one. There are others who feel the same way.

But let me put this another way: Why have a tournament for lower rank individuals (possibly newer duelers) if half of them will be alts of veterans? And I'm asking because I really don't know why it was created, and knowing that might help me understand why having a new alt just to take part in a tournament is "a thing."

Was it created to encourage new duelers? Was it created to earn a prize? Was it created to just have another tournament?

But this is not the only issue that Eva brought up, so I'm looking forward to all the discussion on this and other things that are known to discourage new duelers.

I do very much agree with you. The unfortunate thing is ... you sort of have to instigate a new-duelist-only rule for those tourneys based on the trust system, yeah?

And while there's some harm done by vets who gobble up newer players on their alts, imagine how much harm could be done to the community should a vet break this theoretical rule/ban, lie about it, and then get caught (or even just suspected) after winning? You'd have the sort of scandal on your hands that has caused folks to leave in droves before.

Additionally, would these tournaments even get enough players to have a tourney proper without vets? I honestly don't know. I don't play in low rank tourneys generally and I don't know what the turn out's been like (or even who is a vet alt and who is truly new currently!)

So it is tricky. It is complex. Your appeal to vets to lay off is something that I can support. I second it. I'm not sure how you can police alts without some major overhauls to how duelist/character/etc tracking is done. And even then, there's no way to know for sure if someone's not telling the truth.

[Lirssa Sarengrave]

You're right, Rakeesh. There really is no way to police it, and finding out post might cause issues. Of course, it is sorta causing issues now when people find out through the grapevine anyway, right? But the community, in general, currently accepts that vets can get alts to participate.

So -- and I'm just throwing this out there prematurely, because I am hoping others will join in the conversation -- why not stop calling it what it isn't? Why call it a new/low rank tournament? And I think the answer might lead back to some previous questions about why we have it at all. So...yeah, I'm gonna stop rattling on for a bit and let other people get a word in edgewise.

[Corlanthis]

Of course, it is sorta causing issues now when people find out through the grapevine anyway, right?

There's a pretty big difference between someone breaking a rule and someone just doing something that someone else doesn't like.

So -- and I'm just throwing this out there prematurely, because I am hoping others will join in the conversation -- why not stop calling it what it isn't? Why call it a new/low rank tournament?

Because tournaments like the Panther's Claw and Talon are for low ranked characters. That is exactly what they are supposed to be and that's what they are. They exist because there are multiple ranks that are not the top rank and cannot challenge for titles or take part in the WLT or Diamond Quest.

I would love to see a tournament that's for new duelers, but that's a lot more nebulous concept than you're portraying it and likely everyone has their own definition of what it means.

Take me for example, the only sport I've held top rank in is Fists. I've never scratched together more than 3 - 5 WoL in Magic or Swords at a time, despite being involved with the duels since AOL. Where do I fall when it comes to "new player" tournaments for swords and magic? Personally, the idea of me being a new duelist is laughable, even if I'm not any good.

All that said: any player can hold a tournament with whatever rules they want to put in place. You can work with the sport Coordinators to come up with appropriate prizes. Test a proof of concept New Player Tournament.

[Andrea Anderson]

I'd also like to point out that there are, at times, some players who only show up for tournaments. Or enjoy tournaments over regulation.

All that said: any player can hold a tournament with whatever rules they want to put in place. You can work with the sport Coordinators to come up with appropriate prizes. Test a proof of concept New Player Tournament.

Would be the best idea. Your tournament, your rules.

[Mason]

Because tournaments like the Panther's Claw and Talon are for low ranked characters.

Yes, that's what it says. But we are talking about the impressions of a NEW dueler. The logical thought process of someone new is that low ranked characters aren't champion players.

The majority of new duelers don't know people have alts.

As Lirssa said, call it what it is. It's just another tournament.


Wins are good. The few that I've had were great. I lose far more than I win. Been shut out a few times. Will be again. It doesn't feel good but in the end it's no big deal. The losses that truly hurt are the ones that you find out were to someone with a ton of titles and ranks and opals all under a different names. It feels like you got taken by a pool shark. Or as I've described it to friends it feels like you are in chummed water.

I don't know everyone's alts. I don't want to know. But a little heads up would be nice. Don't tell me who you play but a quick pm before I take the fight that you are a high ranked player would be nice. I'll still accept the fight but at least my expectations for the outcome of the fight will be more realistic.