Coming attractions.

Out of Character message board for the Duel of Swords

Moderator: Staff

User avatar
Sylus Kurgen
Expert Adventurer
Expert Adventurer
Posts: 691
Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2004 1:56 am
Location: His shop, or the Arena

Post by Sylus Kurgen »

Agreed, Jake.

I've been deviating from the topic of the conversation in order to answer some of the responses.

Need to go back through the thread so far and make a list of bullet items that have been raised to discuss and get things back on track.
~Wanderer of Redemption's Road~
User avatar
Kalamere
Black Wizard
Black Wizard
Devil's Advocate

Posts: 1796
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2005 10:45 pm
Location: Dragon's Gate
Contact:

Post by Kalamere »

Sylus wrote: The transition from requiring Peer Wins to challenge for rank to the Show of Activity system, there were fewer people coming out to duel.
To be pedantic (though I have a reason; below) we did not go from Peer Wins to SoA to now. When Peer Wins were removed we went to a system of open challenge from warlords to barons and from barons to the Overlord - there was no mechanism in place for warlords to challenge the OL (outside of winning the WLT) and no restrictions on warlord challenges to barons.

SoA came up a while later to replace that system - putting in place a system to gate challenges somewhat more as well as to give warlords an avenue to go for the Overlord title, but the latter being balanced by the loyal wall rules.

SoA then got tossed out with the sweeping changes of 2014 and replaced with what we have today.

I mention this because I have heard support for the return of both SoA and the loyal wall rules (not necessarily mentioned by the same people nor always a desire for both) as things that should potentially come back. They might be worth putting on the back log as items to be discussed later.
User avatar
Spell
Expert Adventurer
Expert Adventurer
Cult of Personality

Posts: 932
Joined: Wed Feb 29, 2012 2:16 am

Post by Spell »

Kalamere wrote:
Sylus wrote: The transition from requiring Peer Wins to challenge for rank to the Show of Activity system, there were fewer people coming out to duel.
To be pedantic (though I have a reason; below) we did not go from Peer Wins to SoA to now. When Peer Wins were removed we went to a system of open challenge from warlords to barons and from barons to the Overlord - there was no mechanism in place for warlords to challenge the OL (outside of winning the WLT) and no restrictions on warlord challenges to barons.

SoA came up a while later to replace that system - putting in place a system to gate challenges somewhat more as well as to give warlords an avenue to go for the Overlord title, but the latter being balanced by the loyal wall rules.

SoA then got tossed out with the sweeping changes of 2014 and replaced with what we have today.

I mention this because I have heard support for the return of both SoA and the loyal wall rules (not necessarily mentioned by the same people nor always a desire for both) as things that should potentially come back. They might be worth putting on the back log as items to be discussed later.
Why not mix the two? Use the SOA part and the option of only Barons and WLT winners being allowed to challenge for OL. Though this is off topic.. but I wanted to bring it up >_>.
User avatar
G
Legendary Adventurer
Legendary Adventurer
Ric Flair

Posts: 4124
Joined: Wed Feb 11, 2004 1:09 am
Location: Generally found at the Golden Ivy Tavern. If not there, then on the SpellJammer, his ship.

Post by G »

At the risk of a bit of thread derailment (And putting the whole thing into one post again.. and in the right folder)...

Talon of Redwin in the WLT.

Did that three straight times as I said before on a trial basis.

Discontinued because Higher Ranks were major participants in the ToR and when a higher rank alt won the Talon, they then won the warlord tournament and then defeated the Overlord and proceeded to defend ten times. After that, it was deemed that it was an overpowered reward for just another warlord. There were complaints about that, too. You may agree or disagree with the reasoning for stopping that trial, but it's done.

Squire Tournaments.

Used to be a requirement for Barons if they wanted a squire. Barons had to hold squire tournaments with a max. of 8 duelists that they could invite in any format they chose.

Discontinued because Barons didn't want to put in the effort and in the early period and run a tournament to choose a squire, and complained about it being required. This led to few squires and so the requirement was done away and the tournaments made an option instead of requirement which seems to be taken better.

Show of Activity

After the amount of complaining about a show of activity requirement to issue challenges, someone really wants to bring that back? This wasn't a serious suggestion, was it?

Giving away challenge grants to lower ranked duelists

Remember Halloween Havoc in 2014, The Trick or Treat Challenges in 2011? When a King of the Ring Tournament occurred for a grant for both first and second place? When lower ranks were permitted to challenge on Halloween on a first come, first serve basis for every single title? Or grants permitted to be given for several tournaments that were player held events?

I remember. Because I remember the amount of complaints I had to deal with in regards to them.

Oh, and I also remember when, as a Christmas Present, I gave away 3 Wins over Losses to Every Single Rank on the standings.

I guess I'm a little -_- at how much has been forgotten over the years that were done for lower ranks and getting brought up as new ideas when they were tried in the past and met with complaint after complaint.

If you want to bring them back, feel free. But don't be surprised if you get complaints. And if you don't, well then there's a few hypocrites out there.
G'nort Dragoon-Talanador
Duel of Swords Legend. Best In The World™.
First All Time DoS Title Holder.
Listed as "Daddy" in your daughters contacts list.
Image
User avatar
JewellRavenlock
Legendary Adventurer
Legendary Adventurer
The Empress

Posts: 2473
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2006 5:26 pm
Location: Little Elfhame, Old Market
Contact:

Post by JewellRavenlock »

Best Christmas present ever!

You helped me get out of my slump and reach Warlord shortly thereafter <3
"The smell of her hair, the taste of her mouth, the feeling of her skin seemed to have got inside him, or into the air all round him. She had become a physical necessity."
George Orwell 1984
User avatar
Sylus Kurgen
Expert Adventurer
Expert Adventurer
Posts: 691
Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2004 1:56 am
Location: His shop, or the Arena

Post by Sylus Kurgen »

G wrote:At the risk of a bit of thread derailment (And putting the whole thing into one post again.. and in the right folder)...

Talon of Redwin in the WLT.

Did that three straight times as I said before on a trial basis.

Discontinued because Higher Ranks were major participants in the ToR and when a higher rank alt won the Talon, they then won the warlord tournament and then defeated the Overlord and proceeded to defend ten times. After that, it was deemed that it was an overpowered reward for just another warlord. There were complaints about that, too. You may agree or disagree with the reasoning for stopping that trial, but it's done.

Squire Tournaments.

Used to be a requirement for Barons if they wanted a squire. Barons had to hold squire tournaments with a max. of 8 duelists that they could invite in any format they chose.

Discontinued because Barons didn't want to put in the effort and in the early period and run a tournament to choose a squire, and complained about it being required. This led to few squires and so the requirement was done away and the tournaments made an option instead of requirement which seems to be taken better.

Show of Activity

After the amount of complaining about a show of activity requirement to issue challenges, someone really wants to bring that back? This wasn't a serious suggestion, was it?

Giving away challenge grants to lower ranked duelists

Remember Halloween Havoc in 2014, The Trick or Treat Challenges in 2011? When a King of the Ring Tournament occurred for a grant for both first and second place? When lower ranks were permitted to challenge on Halloween on a first come, first serve basis for every single title? Or grants permitted to be given for several tournaments that were player held events?

I remember. Because I remember the amount of complaints I had to deal with in regards to them.

Oh, and I also remember when, as a Christmas Present, I gave away 3 Wins over Losses to Every Single Rank on the standings.

I guess I'm a little -_- at how much has been forgotten over the years that were done for lower ranks and getting brought up as new ideas when they were tried in the past and met with complaint after complaint.

If you want to bring them back, feel free. But don't be surprised if you get complaints. And if you don't, well then there's a few hypocrites out there.
And all of that is why we love you.

This community can have a rather short memory, I'll give you that. Several items that were major complaint points being brought up as new solutions haven't been lost on me either.

If I wanted to be cruel I'd start talking about Peer Wins. That system never bothered me at all.

For those that weren't around during that time, Want to Challenge a Baron, you needed 15 UNIQUE duels against Warlords or Barons, and had to submit the list for review.
~Wanderer of Redemption's Road~
User avatar
Kalamere
Black Wizard
Black Wizard
Devil's Advocate

Posts: 1796
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2005 10:45 pm
Location: Dragon's Gate
Contact:

Post by Kalamere »

G wrote:Show of Activity

After the amount of complaining about a show of activity requirement to issue challenges, someone really wants to bring that back? This wasn't a serious suggestion, was it?
Mentioned to me by three different people this week before I posted it an another last night afterwards.. so, yeah, there is some interest and some who feel we've cycled back to making challenging too easy (especially in regard to the Overlord; recalling that DoS is the only sport that offers an open challenge to the top rank). Personally I'm on the fence about it - but I wouldn't be opposed to kicking around ideas.

Complaints happen. There are always at least two sides to a thing, you can see that in these discussions already, you can see it in pretty much any game community anywhere. I can't tell you how many times and in how many different games I've seen:

* Merlin writes: "I just got ganked AGAIN by a GD rogue. Backstab and stun lock is ef'ing stupid, you guys have GOT to fix that!"
* Larceny writes two weeks later: "WTF? I've got no dungeon survivability, damn near no group utility and now some half health clothy just shrugged off my backstab? Srsly?!? Time to roll a pally."

Granted we don't have to try to balance classes, which would be a whole other nightmare I have no doubt, but balance is still a thing and what is balanced today may not be perceived as balanced any more next year. I certainly have no illusions that Sylus and I are going to be running a complaint free / perfectly blissful Arena. I'm going to credit his intelligence by saying I'm confident he does not either.
G wrote:Squire Tournaments.

Used to be a requirement for Barons if they wanted a squire. Barons had to hold squire tournaments with a max. of 8 duelists that they could invite in any format they chose.
Maybe I missed this (?) but I don't think anyone has proposed a return to mandatory squire tournaments. The suggestion I saw had to do with a tournament between squires. A very different thing.
User avatar
Hope
Expert Adventurer
Expert Adventurer
Beast Mode

Posts: 847
Joined: Wed Jul 10, 2013 2:13 am
Location: New Haven
Contact:

Post by Hope »

When I was first starting out on RoH I was very pushed off by the concepts of SoA and a Loyal Wall. I had no rank in DoS and the thought of hitting Warlord and gathering SoA just to have my challenge interceded on sounded so awful that I personally avoided the sport for about a year.

Having been in the sport for a little longer my feelings have shifted on the topic a bit. I still think SoA would prove to be a very daunting task for new players who even want to climb the ranks but I do think the OL title has become more of a prestige if you can simply hold onto it and less if you can win it. The memorable OLs to me have been the ones who manage to fend away the onslaught of challengers, the names that come to mind are specifically Matt and Rand.

I think the Loyal Wall could help restore some play opportunities and help provide the title with a little more security. I think that SoA was a bit dated but I would be hard pressed to say they didn't help regulation. Maybe a tempered version could be reinstated. 5 for a Baron challenge and 10 for Overlord maybe?
User avatar
Kalamere
Black Wizard
Black Wizard
Devil's Advocate

Posts: 1796
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2005 10:45 pm
Location: Dragon's Gate
Contact:

Post by Kalamere »

Largely I think the SoA topic should be tabled.. but since I have no self control I'm gonna go ahead and talk some about it anyway.

My understanding is that the biggest complaint with SoA was the need to regain it post challenge. This was a feature of Peer Wins, used to speed bump challenges and to put something at risk for the challenger.

The problem is two fold really. First, there's the issue of semantics. SoA = Show of Activity. The fact that someone just challenged did not suddenly make them inactive in any way, so why should they have to reprove the fact? Second was the simple fact of the onerous and time consuming act of having to get in another 10 duels.

Were we to do it again... and to be clear I'm not making this a formal proposal because, frankly, I'm not even positive that I'd be in favor of it... but, I'd probably say that we ditch or at least drastically decrease the need to re-earn SoA counts between challenges. Earn the value of SoA (2,5,10, whatever) and if you still meet it at the time you want to challenge again, then you're still qualified. Maybe put in some other clause that says you must have a minimum of, say, two duels between challenges. Having to re-earn all 10 seems to me to have been the worst / most complained about part of the system though and I can kinda agree with that.
User avatar
Spell
Expert Adventurer
Expert Adventurer
Cult of Personality

Posts: 932
Joined: Wed Feb 29, 2012 2:16 am

Post by Spell »

Simple solution could be..

Overlord is the supreme title. Only those of Baron rank or winner of the Warlord Tournament may challenge them.

Or..

Overlord is the supreme title. They gain a 30 day grace period after every defense. The 30 day grace period begins after the standings are updated. WLT 14 day grace continues as intended. WLT Overlord Grant does not listen to the 30 day grace period if, let's say, the OL was challenged before the 14 day grace and completes it before the WLT. New Overlords are given a 30 day grace period as well.

As for SoA / Warlord challenge rights.

Warlords are given one (1) challenge right each cycle. This is free and requires they only duel once every cycle to stay active on the stands, and once in a 2 month period to USE the challenge right as per the current rule. So if you're active, you duel your one duel requirement to stay active during that cycle and proceed to have 2 months to challenge.

SoA returns as a way to help boost more competitive players.

If a Warlord used their one free challenge right, they can then duel 5 SoA duels to unlock another challenge right. This can continue on and on to a max of a set amount. Maybe 3? Since there's usually 3 months to a cycle. So 1 free right, and 2 you can gain via SoA, 5 SoA each.

That way. If you're casual and don't feel like dueling as much but still want to challenge? You have your free shot Warlord challenge right.

If you're competitive and don't mind doing the extra steps to grind out SoA? You can gain more challenge rights throughout a cycle and no longer be limited to just two challenges. DoF allows you to challenge once per month if you don't hold a title ( with a 30 day wait if you do and have lost it ), and DoM allows you to challenge every 30 days. DoS is the only sport that hard caps a player at 2 challenge rights per cycle ( not counting WLT or event gains ), and that means only 8 challenges per year if you have only 1 character within these limitations.
Post Reply

Return to “Duel of Swords (OOC)”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests