Talon of Redwin

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Post by G »

Claire Farron wrote:
Spell wrote:Looked over the rules tucked away under histories (though I wonder why the Talon info isn't listed under the DoS tab). The 16 cap is there as well.

I'm trying to recall any recent tournament in the past two years having more than 16 participants though.
Winter Talon Feb 2015

21 there. I'm bad at alts so I couldn't tell ya how many are alt-y.
The reason there were so many for this was because of the event theme that was held along with it.
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Post by Claire Gallows »

G wrote:
Claire Farron wrote:
Spell wrote:Looked over the rules tucked away under histories (though I wonder why the Talon info isn't listed under the DoS tab). The 16 cap is there as well.

I'm trying to recall any recent tournament in the past two years having more than 16 participants though.
Winter Talon Feb 2015

21 there. I'm bad at alts so I couldn't tell ya how many are alt-y.
The reason there were so many for this was because of the event theme that was held along with it.
There were other themed talons that didn't pull nearly the same numbers. Themes are good and definitely a draw but they can be hit and miss.
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Post by Luna Eva »

G wrote:The reason there were so many for this was because of the event theme that was held along with it.
Was that the joust-themed tournament you did?

I don't know if giving the Talon winner a spot in the WLT will cause more WL alts to enter the tournament than already do, so I'm ambivalent about the proposed change.

That said, I'm just chiming in because I think themed events are pretty fun and have a track record of being successful in attracting more and different participants, which I consider to be a good thing.

I don't think these two ideas rule each other out, but if we're talking about what Staff is going to put their focus and effort on, I'd love to see some creativity and advertising go into the Talon tournament.

Edited to add in response to Claire, that it's true themed events can be hit or miss. There are always a variety of factors that can affect the attendance of any given event, like day of the week, time of year, etc. And not every tournament needs a theme of course. Buuuuuut, I still like them!
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Post by Claire Gallows »

Luna Eva wrote:
Edited to add in response to Claire, that it's true themed events can be hit or miss. There are always a variety of factors that can affect the attendance of any given event, like day of the week, time of year, etc. And not every tournament needs a theme of course. Buuuuuut, I still like them!
FTR: I love themes and events. They're my favorite and I try to come to every one that I can.

But just as a matter of contrast to the Talon I linked earlier. One year later for the Winter Talon in Feb 2016, we had a theme too. Both held on a Sunday in February at approximately the same time (8 vs 8:30). We also only had 7 people show up in Feb 2016 vs 21 in Feb 2015. Theme issue? Sport issue? Community shrinkage? Who knows. Just some side by side examples.

I'm a numbers person, I like comparing/contrasting.
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Post by G »

Luna Eva wrote:
G wrote:The reason there were so many for this was because of the event theme that was held along with it.
Was that the joust-themed tournament you did?
The 21 was the Casino theme Talon that Gabby organized. I just helped with calling. :)

Here's what I dug up with what time I had.

(Prizes not including wins gained. Usually just the Talon and Squireships offered,.)

Spring 2016 Talon of Redwin Tournament
No theme, 7 entries (1 prize)

Winter 2016 ToR
Wrestling Theme, 7 entries (3 prizes)

Fall 2015 ToR
No Theme, 8 entries (2 prizes)

Summer 2015 ToR
Sorta themed(food provided), 10 entries (1 prize)

Spring 2015 ToR
Beltane Themed, 10 Entries (1 prize)

Winter 2014 ToR
Casino Themed, 21 entries (1 prize)

Fall 2014 ToR
No theme, 6 entries (1 prize)

So basically, the theme doesn't really hit much as far as participants go, though I do believe when themes are involved, the crowd is actually far larger. So the numbers can be a little off. I'd go back farther, but I only had enough time to do this much. :)
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Post by Luna Eva »

Thanks for the numbers you guys. That's interesting to see!

I think those examples raise the point that a particular theme might not appeal to everyone, or might not make RP sense for every character. That's good to keep in mind when ideas are being developed.

I think in general though, to get back to the topic at hand, I'm generally more for trying things out and seeing how they do. Whether we're talking about a new incentive for the tournament, or just new theme/advertising.
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Post by Sylus Kurgen »

With this topic in general the labels of New to DoS and Low Ranked is getting bandied around. I'll bring up the concept that New to DoS does NOT directly mean new to the duels. I made Keeper of Earth and Sorceror in DoM at least a year and a half before I made Warlord in the Arena, before then I dabbled in DoS, maybe once or twice a cycle. Majority of my time was spent on the Isle, or in the Outback. How many others does this sound like?

This raises the question of, what do we classify as "New"? What's the time-frame? Less than 6 months? Under a year? What is the distinction?

Jake, Kalamere, or even G would know this better than I, but it was roughly 3 years before Tass Momus held any DoS rank other than Commoner.

For me, by the end of a year the average person has a generally decent understanding of dueling and the sports. The person is Seasoned, no longer "New". That's just my view.

On top of this it feels like IC is getting left out of the equation in favor of OOC. I know for me, if my character is having fun, then by extension I am having fun. For some characters, especially competitive ones..the idea of getting a chance to compete against the Arena elite is enticing.

IC and OOC should be considered, not one or the other, but a combination.
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Post by Kalamere »

Sylus Kurgen wrote:Jake, Kalamere, or even G would know this better than I, but it was roughly 3 years before Tass Momus held any DoS rank other than Commoner.
Totally off topic, but you asked so I was curious and checked. It took him about 2.5 years to make warlord. He bounced up to swordsman several times throughout that though, the first being his 3rd week on the standings.
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Post by Rakeesh »

I like the Talon having a spot in the WLT.

I don't think that you can quantify whether or not someone is OOCly "new" without running into some srs problems at some point, unfortunately. Here's what I propose, for a single Talon tournament, just to see how it goes:

- All of us veterans openly decide not to join the Talon tournament on any of our alts. I'll do it right now.

- Sylus and folks with RDI friends and new players take it upon themselves to promote the Talon as a tournament for truly new people. Tell them that there aren't going to be any sharks in this one, use it as an opportunity to get brand new folks who've never really dueled before hooked.

- Make it exciting. Give it a good theme too, sure. Have veterans come out to support the true newbs. Generate interesting calling, roleplay. One thing that I thought worked really well with DoG (since we had quite a small playerbase) was me trying out a calling style that utilized a lot of different NPCs to try to "fill out the room" with activity. If everyone commits to making the Talon an experience to really engage and provide both dueling AND roleplaying hooks for new players, wow. Think about how cool that would be for them? Think about how that might affect their potential to stick around?

- See if participation improves based on the above strategy. Looking at G's numbers above? I'd definitely guess that it would.

It's the vets who can really do the most here. We can choose to participate by providing good roleplaying examples and support and advertising, rather than by trying to win it for an extra fancy for one of our alts that we're leveling up. That extra fancy doesn't really matter much to a vet anyways.
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Post by JewellRavenlock »

You're right, Sylus. Word choice is important in these discussions.

New dueler isn't really appropriate for some of the reasons Sylus mentioned and reasons that have been mentioned in other threads.

Someone who appears new may not be new to the duels. They may just be an alt. And lower-ranked duelers may not be new at all.

Sylus used Tass as an example of that last point, but I can use myself as well. I haven't been new for a decade here, but I was certainly eligible for the Talon up until a year and a half ago because I was low-ranked.

Lower ranked duelist isn't really appropriate either when it comes to a Talon discussion in my opinion. We all know that most of our lower-ranked names have higher ranked alts.

How about genuine, lower-ranked duelers or legit lower-ranked duelers. Either of those would mean someone that does not have a higher ranked alt in that particular sport whether they've been dueling five days or fifteen years.

With semantics out of the way, I have to ask: Is the Talon really for legit lower ranked duelers? Who is the Talon really meant for? Who do we want it to be meant for? Who are we trying to attract? Who are we trying to make this fun for?
Sylus Kurgen wrote: On top of this it feels like IC is getting left out of the equation in favor of OOC. I know for me, if my character is having fun, then by extension I am having fun. For some characters, especially competitive ones..the idea of getting a chance to compete against the Arena elite is enticing.

IC and OOC should be considered, not one or the other, but a combination.
You've lost me a bit here, Sylus. You're talking about making sure we're thinking about IC and then you say, "For some characters, especially competitive ones..the idea of getting a chance to compete against the Arena elite is enticing."

But in a Talon, ICly.. they aren't competing against the Arena elite. The characters they are facing appear to be lower-ranked, just like them. The players are the ones that are the elite.

That didn't sound too fun to me when I was new. Jewell, the character, was fighting someone just as inept as she was, but I, the player, was facing the Arena elite.

Your statement doesn't sound like you're talking about competitive characters. It sounds like you're talking about competitive players.

Which makes it seem like you're considering how to make this event fun for veteran players and they're lower-ranked alts not legit lower-ranked players.

If you want to talk about the actual IC mechanics of the Talon and how to make that fun for legit lower-ranked people, there have been some great ideas in this thread already. Ideas about themes and advertisement all consider the IC side of things without ignoring the OOC problem of having alts in the Talon and encouraging more of that behavior.

What it really comes back to though is: Is the Talon really for legit lower ranked duelers? Who is the Talon really meant for? Who do we want it to be meant for? Who are we trying to attract? Who are we trying to make this fun for?
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Post by Kalamere »

Rakeesh wrote:- Sylus and folks with RDI friends and new players take it upon themselves to promote the Talon as a tournament for truly new people. Tell them that there aren't going to be any sharks in this one, use it as an opportunity to get brand new folks who've never really dueled before hooked.
To repeat something I said to Jewell earlier: The Talon is not a tournament for the truly new. The Talon is a tournament for the lower ranks. We're combining the two concepts, but they really are not the same thing. Corlanthis, for example, had his first DoS duel 16 years ago and he has twice won the Talon. He does not, to my knowledge, have a Warlord character however. (maybe a bad assumption on my part since I kinda suck at knowing alts, but I'm going with it for now). That makes the talon his only tourney option and I think that's sorta the point of it... to give people who cannot enter the WLT a tournament that they can participate in.

Of course that rationale does speak to why people who do have warlord characters shouldn't be entering, but I kinda justify their entrance I guess for two reasons. (a) I don't think a warlord alt with limited fancies is more dangerous in a tourney than is Cor or any other Grand Master and (b) I'd rather see a field of 16 than a field of 6. For the record I'm also going to throw out here that this is not a case of self interest. Sure, I have some alts, but I have entered the Talon with one of them one time ever just to help round things to an even number of participants. Hell, I hardly even enter WLT's.. so this isn't a case of trying to keep myself in.

Talon participation would be cool to drive up and I have no issue with the rest of the details. I do tend to think, however, that when entering a tournament of any kind that you are (and deserve to be) at a disadvantage if you have no idea what you're doing - keeping in mind that your M@A and GM level duelists are going to be significantly better equipt to do well. I feel that other, non-tournament, events are much better venues for recruitment to generate interest and knowledge of the game. Going into a tourney and getting trounced in the first round may not be a great time, whether or not it's a warlord alt that you faced. Things like Eden's laser tag night this weekend, however, are way better tools in my opinion.
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Post by Sylus Kurgen »

JewellRavenlock wrote:You're right, Sylus. Word choice is important in these discussions.

New dueler isn't really appropriate for some of the reasons Sylus mentioned and reasons that have been mentioned in other threads.

Someone who appears new may not be new to the duels. They may just be an alt. And lower-ranked duelers may not be new at all.

Sylus used Tass as an example of that last point, but I can use myself as well. I haven't been new for a decade here, but I was certainly eligible for the Talon up until a year and a half ago because I was low-ranked.

Lower ranked duelist isn't really appropriate either when it comes to a Talon discussion in my opinion. We all know that most of our lower-ranked names have higher ranked alts.

How about genuine, lower-ranked duelers or legit lower-ranked duelers. Either of those would mean someone that does not have a higher ranked alt in that particular sport whether they've been dueling five days or fifteen years.

With semantics out of the way, I have to ask: Is the Talon really for legit lower ranked duelers? Who is the Talon really meant for? Who do we want it to be meant for? Who are we trying to attract? Who are we trying to make this fun for?
Sylus Kurgen wrote: On top of this it feels like IC is getting left out of the equation in favor of OOC. I know for me, if my character is having fun, then by extension I am having fun. For some characters, especially competitive ones..the idea of getting a chance to compete against the Arena elite is enticing.

IC and OOC should be considered, not one or the other, but a combination.
You've lost me a bit here, Sylus. You're talking about making sure we're thinking about IC and then you say, "For some characters, especially competitive ones..the idea of getting a chance to compete against the Arena elite is enticing."

But in a Talon, ICly.. they aren't competing against the Arena elite. The characters they are facing appear to be lower-ranked, just like them. The players are the ones that are the elite.

That didn't sound too fun to me when I was new. Jewell, the character, was fighting someone just as inept as she was, but I, the player, was facing the Arena elite.

Your statement doesn't sound like you're talking about competitive characters. It sounds like you're talking about competitive players.

Which makes it seem like you're considering how to make this event fun for veteran players and they're lower-ranked alts not legit lower-ranked players.

If you want to talk about the actual IC mechanics of the Talon and how to make that fun for legit lower-ranked people, there have been some great ideas in this thread already. Ideas about themes and advertisement all consider the IC side of things without ignoring the OOC problem of having alts in the Talon and encouraging more of that behavior.

What it really comes back to though is: Is the Talon really for legit lower ranked duelers? Who is the Talon really meant for? Who do we want it to be meant for? Who are we trying to attract? Who are we trying to make this fun for?
The Talon of Redwin tournament was initially created to give those ranked GM and under a something to compete in. Before its inception, there was only the Warlord Tournament. That's why it's here. Something fun for those ranked UNDER warlord to do. It wasn't created for completely brand new faces.
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Post by JewellRavenlock »

Sylus Kurgen wrote: The Talon of Redwin tournament was initially created to give those ranked GM and under a something to compete in. Before its inception, there was only the Warlord Tournament. That's why it's here. Something fun for those ranked UNDER warlord to do. It wasn't created for completely brand new faces.
Which is why I spent so much time on semantics in that post you just quoted.

If it's for legit lower ranked people and that's how we want to keep it going (not as some veiled all-ranks tournament, which is what it is at a moment) then something needs to change.
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Post by Spell »

JewellRavenlock wrote:If it's for legit lower ranked people and that's how we want to keep it going (not as some veiled all-ranks tournament, which is what it is at a moment) then something needs to change.
it's not an all-rank tournament because only those ranked on the standings as grandmaster and below can join. I don't see anywhere in Sylus's post claiming that the talon is for "legit" low ranks.

If we want to be an inclusive community shouldn't we look at what allows everyone to participate? If someone doesn't want to participate due to feeling that the Talon is meant for new players, that's fine. If someone doesn't want to join the tournament because they believe it will be full of sandbaggers, that's on them.

It took me less than a year of not fully understanding the rules of DoS/DoM/DoF to get a high rank in each sport and win one title in each. Would I not have been considered new enough at the time to join the Talon tournament on an alt? Simply because I grasped the rules faster than others?

It's an option of choices. Players can choose if they want to participate or not. They have their own ideologies when it comes to these things. Some will say they feel it's a new player tournament and not join, some will want to join for the achievement ( it's a thing, we have achievements for a reason ), some might use it as an RP prop for their families linage of duelists, some might not be able to duel a lot and see the tournament as a chance to get a bunch of fights during one night and RP with others -- and many other reasons beyond these examples.

Narrowing the scope and only looking at it from one way isn't the best idea. There's a wide range of reasons many players choose to join the tournament. Why disregard a large portion of your playerbase?
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Post by JewellRavenlock »

Spell, I do see the perks of the Talon not being limited to legit lower-ranked people. Just to be clear, it's not like I haven't been tempted to join in myself as an alt.

I just think that the negatives outweigh the benefits.

The DoS "elite" have the Warlord Tournament to themselves. What does everyone else have? What do they get? Where does everyone else get to go to fight people on level with them in a tournament? Why are the "elite" the only ones that get to fight in a tournament with only people on level with them?

To make it clear: I don't think that a legit lower-ranked person is on level with a Warlord alt. I know not everyone agrees with that (::coughKalcough::), so I just wanted to make it clear that my questions are asked with that in mind.
Last edited by JewellRavenlock on Wed Jul 06, 2016 4:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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