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Post by Spell »

How do you gauge someone as elite? DoS is the easiest sport when it comes to defeating someone of higher rank. Fancies only offer the smallest boost. We've all had lower ranked characters beat us before. Look at the current barons and realize that a few of them gained it while not even being ranked. Even Candy, who was 0-0-0 on the DoS standings, became a baron and then an Overlord without being ranked as Warlord.

Simply having a Warlord or being a former Baron and Overlord does not make someone elite. It means they won that given night and can lose during another.

Also, I, like Kal it seems, believe a lower ranked person is on the level with a Warlord alt. I've had truly new players beat me; Peaches, Izumi, etc. When I fought them as a higher rank. If someone is being held back at the simple idea that they might have to fight a high rank alt then that is their own issue.

Stepping into any tournament without prep is going to put you at a disadvantage. Instead of inviting a new player to join the tournament and throwing them to the sharks, how about inviting them to regulation or even linking them the DoS training tool? You can spar with them in private IM's too and give them some tips.
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Post by Sabine »

Spell wrote:Inviting them to regulation or even linking them the DoS training tool? You can spar with them in private IM's too and give them some tips.
This this!!!

I am all about loving on the new people and this is a great way to do it!

Sal's player really is the one who got me to look at the duels and decide to seriously try them.

She showed me the practice tool and did mock fights with me, she was there to cheer me on and help me understand the matrix and the process of why or why not when choosing a move.

From there I got hooked up with Melanie and she mentored me in DoF but her teachings carried over into DoS as well.

Having a good support system and people to go into the duels with and that 1x1 practice game and mock duels really helped me.

Once I had a grasp on dueling, we then helped others in IM by doing practice fights.

Apple's player and Hope's player also did practice fights with me and others, sometimes in the lobby of RDI.

After about 3 months of serious dueling, I was able to do my first challenge.

There definitely are advantages to being new, like being un-scoutable. It was the coolest feeling to beat some veterans. I remember the first time I beat G, OMG!!! lol

Anyway, my point is, I like what you said. lol
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Post by Spell »

It's honestly something that the staff / coordinators don't need to focus on. A purely player driven lobby party before duels start to show people the ropes can be easily done on set nights. We'd just need people willing to call mock duels and participate. Or do it IC at the great helm since that room needs attention.
Sabine wrote:There definitely are advantages to being new, like being un-scoutable. It was the coolest feeling to beat some veterans. I remember the first time I beat G, OMG!!! lol
That feel of "No clue if this is an alt or a new player. Probably an alt. I'll just defend here." and getting slashed for it. Yes, new players have that advantage. ::Cry::
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Post by Sabine »

Agreed. I think a focus on mentoring/interacting would be great. Having so many people put that much time and effort into me, made me want to show up and be there and participate.

I'd be willing to do this! Anyone can direct someone to me and I'll be happy to call mock fights or duel mock fights.

Edit to add: I have definitely got my *** handed to me by new players or players who duel on occasion only. It's humbling to say the least.
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Post by Lirssa Sarengrave »

Spell wrote:
Also, I, like Kal it seems, believe a lower ranked person is on the level with a Warlord alt. I've had truly new players beat me; Peaches, Izumi, etc. When I fought them as a higher rank. If someone is being held back at the simple idea that they might have to fight a high rank alt then that is their own issue.

Stepping into any tournament without prep is going to put you at a disadvantage. Instead of inviting a new player to join the tournament and throwing them to the sharks, how about inviting them to regulation or even linking them the DoS training tool? You can spar with them in private IM's too and give them some tips.
I think I must be misinterpreting what you're saying here. When I read it, I sum it up as "New players are on equal footing to a Warlord alt, but you should practice more if you're feeling like you're at a disadvantage." Well, yes, they are at a disadvantage to someone who has "practiced" over 500 times on another character.

I feel like I must be missing an element in the comment, because those two things don't equate. I cannot be on equal footing with someone who has more practice than I do. Now, me personally? I don't give a flying fig, but that is my personality.
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Post by Spell »

Lirssa Sarengrave wrote:
Spell wrote:
Also, I, like Kal it seems, believe a lower ranked person is on the level with a Warlord alt. I've had truly new players beat me; Peaches, Izumi, etc. When I fought them as a higher rank. If someone is being held back at the simple idea that they might have to fight a high rank alt then that is their own issue.

Stepping into any tournament without prep is going to put you at a disadvantage. Instead of inviting a new player to join the tournament and throwing them to the sharks, how about inviting them to regulation or even linking them the DoS training tool? You can spar with them in private IM's too and give them some tips.
I think I must be misinterpreting what you're saying here. When I read it, I sum it up as "New players are on equal footing to a Warlord alt, but you should practice more if you're feeling like you're at a disadvantage." Well, yes, they are at a disadvantage to someone who has "practiced" over 500 times on another character.

I feel like I must be missing an element in the comment, because those two things don't equate. I cannot be on equal footing with someone who has more practice than I do. Now, me personally? I don't give a flying fig, but that is my personality.
If you want to join a tournament environment where a prize is on the line there's going to be players more versed in the matrix, even if they aren't warlord alts. The option of practicing instead of throwing yourself into a tournament and expecting others to be at your level. There are tools, regulation, or even the option of opening the matrix with your friend who may be new and practicing with them.

Outside of a tournament you have the power to choose who you want to fight. There are options where higher ranks will fight you on your level, etc.

And no, you did not misinterpret. That's how games are. If you are not good, you practice. When did this change? Player vs player games always have a learning curve that requires an understanding. You don't play Dark Souls and expect not to die, or play WoW and expect to get a good rating in Arenas on your first go. You practice. When I first came to the duels I was told "Madness is going on. You should join in. Play this tool and if you can beat it twice in a row no rank vs Warlord you should be fine!" I had no clue wtf Madness was and went "Well my friends are playing so I'll join it. It seems simple enough."

I joined. I lost in the first round because I read the matrix wrong and LP'd after a HC. I blamed myself for losing and not my opponent who knew the matrix better.

There are tools to learn the duels without stepping into tournaments. Squires can use their fancies in tournaments, so if your friend knows you're new and they are a baron? Maybe you can get the squireship. If DoS had a mentor system like DoF and DoM, I'd assume those boosts coudl be used too. There are so many options for new players out there.

Edit: And like I've said. DoS is the most basic of the dueling sport. It's about %'s and reading the matrix. ANYONE, yes even a fresh to the duels player, who has the tools given to them can defeat anyone at any given time. And as Sabine pointed out, the alt or new player is at an advantage as well since the older player has no clue what their duel style may be. There are also ranked duelists who will cut these players a break and fight at their level. So, yes. A new player has the same footing as a Warlord alt if they use the tools provided to them.

Most callers, if you tell them you are new, will provide you with a matrix and explain the basics of the duels to you. I even practice dueled with a few new players in PM's *while* calling on my DUEL name during a regular regulation night, or linked them the practice tool and explained to them how to use it. If I see someone who is acting new? I reach out to them when I'm calling to make sure they have a matrix and understand what's going on.

Edit 2: To add on to the Madness story. When I lost to the person I LP'd after their HC? They PM'd me asking if I was new and we talked about the duel.
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Post by Aric Delevingne »

Hello!

I think instead of trying to exclude people, we might want to try to include more!

I think even though people say that fancies don't matter, it is still intimidating to new people or commoners to duel against a grandmaster in what is a "newbie" tournament like the Talon kinda/sorta is. I can easily see someone put off that they are new, they entered the tournament, and then someone with more experience who may or may not have alts that are Warlord or higher beat up on them with fancies.

I think it would be cool to put everyone who wants to duel for the Talon on the same footing. Maybe give everyone 2 fancies to use, no matter the rank. It would let new people try out the duels with fancies to see how they are used, and also at least make them feel like they have a fighting chance against a higher-ranked person. I know when DoF had the night when it let me duel as a higher rank, it made me feel better about dueling people because I knew they couldn't bury me with modifiers and also let me play around with them to give me some incentive to learn and get better.

Also as maybe an addition or an alternative, why not have Warlords/Barons/the Overlord there and available as mentors? This can even be done before the event! Try to recruit new people or lower ranks to the Talon and be there during the event to give them tips. Maybe set up a one night mentor system where their mentee gets an extra fancy?

This would hopefully give Warlord characters and above a reason to take part in the tournament and be vested in it without feeling like the only way to participate is with an alt. There can be a reward of some sort given to the mentor if their mentee wins. Maybe they get a first round bye in the next WLT? Maybe they get to pick their opponent in the WLT? Or if the Baron or OL win, maybe they get to set some sort of matchup in the WLT or their mentee automatically gains entrance to it? Just spitballing!

But I think finding some way to involve Warlords and higher with the Talon, and then also putting new duelers on something of a common ground with experienced duelers would drum up more interest.
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Post by Spell »

Aric Delevingne wrote:Hello!

I think instead of trying to exclude people, we might want to try to include more!

I think even though people say that fancies don't matter, it is still intimidating to new people or commoners to duel against a grandmaster in what is a "newbie" tournament like the Talon kinda/sorta is. I can easily see someone put off that they are new, they entered the tournament, and then someone with more experience who may or may not have alts that are Warlord or higher beat up on them with fancies.

I think it would be cool to put everyone who wants to duel for the Talon on the same footing. Maybe give everyone 2 fancies to use, no matter the rank. It would let new people try out the duels with fancies to see how they are used, and also at least make them feel like they have a fighting chance against a higher-ranked person. I know when DoF had the night when it let me duel as a higher rank, it made me feel better about dueling people because I knew they couldn't bury me with modifiers and also let me play around with them to give me some incentive to learn and get better.

Also as maybe an addition or an alternative, why not have Warlords/Barons/the Overlord there and available as mentors? This can even be done before the event! Try to recruit new people or lower ranks to the Talon and be there during the event to give them tips. Maybe set up a one night mentor system where their mentee gets an extra fancy?

This would hopefully give Warlord characters and above a reason to take part in the tournament and be vested in it without feeling like the only way to participate is with an alt. There can be a reward of some sort given to the mentor if their mentee wins. Maybe they get a first round bye in the next WLT? Maybe they get to pick their opponent in the WLT? Or if the Baron or OL win, maybe they get to set some sort of matchup in the WLT or their mentee automatically gains entrance to it? Just spitballing!

But I think finding some way to involve Warlords and higher with the Talon, and then also putting new duelers on something of a common ground with experienced duelers would drum up more interest.
Sadly there's no Warlord mentor system outside of Squireships. And even then a Warlord does not need to be present for their squire to use their weapon. Though if a DoS variant of the DoM/DoF mentee system were in play, it could very well happen.

The idea about giving everyone equal footing in mods is a good one too. Everyone fighting at 3 fancies and treating it like an ART would be nice.. Or maybe 2 fancies, which allows the current talon and squires the option of using 3 ( or 4 if squire / talon combo happens ).. Though then the argument of that person having more fancies then everyone else comes up.

All and all. It's a good idea.

Edit: I ran a tournament called "Clash at Battlefield Park" back when I was standings keeper of DOS where, if I recall, everyone fought as Warlords and it had a good list of participants. The winner was also named the "King of Clash" throughout the rest of the cycle on the standings. Napoleon won the whole thing if I recall correctly. Sadly I only did it once.
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Post by Spell »

and to add on. I wouldn't mind running the tournament again... Though giving someone a name-title on the standings isn't possible for me anymore lol. I miss reading "Napoleon Bonarat, the King of Clash".

Edit: for historical purposes, here's the link to the tournament: link.

Reading over the thread I see why it was discontinued. The Talon started awarding WoL's so the Clash no longer could.
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Post by JewellRavenlock »

I loved the Clash tournament!

I know I harp on the Talon business a lot. It's not that I have a personal, vested interest in it. I don't. Jewell is a Warlord now and I personally choose not to add my alts into the Talon because of that.

I just worry that there isn't a tournament for legit lower-ranked people to duel and feel comfortable and like they're truly on even playing ground and are not going to be sharked.

Maybe that's a lot to ask :) Or not worth asking because there aren't enough legit lower-ranked people to make it worth while. Or maybe I just need to make up my own tournament or something.

Love the ideas Aric!
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Post by Spell »

JewellRavenlock wrote:Or maybe I just need to make up my own tournament or something.
tbh if you win the barony you're gunning for you could hold a new player / no warlord alt tournament for your squireship.

As for the Clash at Battlefield Park, I'm going to think of what I can do to possibly bring it back. The WoL's and standings title were probably the biggest draw ( maybe the icons too, idk ).
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Post by JewellRavenlock »

Sometimes, just the meaningless (on the standings) title is awesome. Who doesn't love to brag?
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Post by Sylus Kurgen »

JewellRavenlock wrote:I just worry that there isn't a tournament for legit lower-ranked people to duel and feel comfortable and like they're truly on even playing ground and are not going to be sharked.
Then design one. The Talon is for all Characters below Warlord. ALL characters.

It's IMPOSSIBLE to restrict events without involving Staff looking at IP addresses.

It's NOT going to happen and even if we say "oh, this event is for someone BRAND NEW" ... well you'l still have people saying "so and so shouldn't' qualify"

or "i don't think that person is new"

It's just an impossible circumstance.

What I'm seeing is a clash between what is Idealistic...and what needs to be Realistic.
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Post by Spell »

Sylus Kurgen wrote:
JewellRavenlock wrote:I just worry that there isn't a tournament for legit lower-ranked people to duel and feel comfortable and like they're truly on even playing ground and are not going to be sharked.
Then design one. The Talon is for all Characters below Warlord. ALL characters.

It's IMPOSSIBLE to restrict events without involving Staff looking at IP addresses.

It's NOT going to happen and even if we say "oh, this event is for someone BRAND NEW" ... well you'l still have people saying "so and so shouldn't' qualify"

or "i don't think that person is new"

It's just an impossible circumstance.

What I'm seeing is a clash between what is Idealistic...and what needs to be Realistic.
It seems that point has come across and it's why we're looking into ideas of making our own tournaments ( or bringing back past existing ones ). It's understandable that the Talon can't be changed since it's a privacy issue as well as an inclusion one. The staff can't really exclude others on newness when there's no real consensus on what is "new" without it being looked upon as favoritism and other such things.

It's easier to take this off staff hands and host our own tournaments.
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Post by JewellRavenlock »

Just to be clear, I never said that staff should start actively trying to restrict participation in events like the Talon.

I asked these particular questions: Is the Talon really for legit lower ranked duelers? Who is the Talon really meant for? Who do we want it to be meant for? Who are we trying to attract? Who are we trying to make this fun for?

I asked those for a reason. Was it meant for ALL CHARACTERS (including Warlord alts) below Warlord or was it meant for truly lower-ranked characters.

Because if it was meant for truly lower-ranked characters (to bring us back to the point of the thread) then I think offering the Talon a trip to the WLT is counter-productive to the intended purpose of the event.

Follow me?

Trust me, I understand that it's unrealistic to actively try to limit the event to legit lower-ranked duelists. BUT if the event is meant for legit lower-ranked duelists, if we're trying to attract more of those people (and not more alts) to the event, then we need to know that!

We need to know who it is meant for and who we want to attract to it in order to discuss any changes.

Yes, even a change as simple as the Talon going to the WLT.
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