Loyalty Wall

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Is the Loyalty Wall something worth bringing back?

Yes, and explain.
7
47%
No, please explain.
8
53%
 
Total votes: 15
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Kalamere
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Post by Kalamere »

Sylus wrote:Overcoming the Loyalty Wall in itself is a test. I'd support that voiding a Test of Worthiness.
I can't go for that. It screws the sitting Overlord just because they happen to have 4 loyal barons instead of 3, when the same renegade baron likely would have supported the challenge either way.

DoS is the only sport that allows a duelist to challenge for top rank without winning a tournament first. So no matter how hard we make it or how many hurdles get put in place, it still remains easier in DoS than anywhere else to take the top title.

For a while we had it such that only barons can challenge the OL. The loyal wall is just that, but with ways to avoid the preliminary challenge if you can line things up right.
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Claire Gallows
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Post by Claire Gallows »

I voted no. But I'm on my phone and still not fully coherent so I'll explain more in depth once I can type properly. My tl;dr is that I feel like the loyal wall discourages participation, in particular from newer people. It was in place when I first started dueling a few years ago and for several other mid ranged tenured dielists that started around the same time and I do remember hearing more than once (and agreeing) that the loyal wall made it not worth doing DoS because it made higher stuff feel untouchable. In light of a lot of the discussions centering around inclusiveness of newer duelists, I'd be wary of returning to something that pushes them out or whathaveyou.

But with that said, if the wall came back, I don't feel like removing the ability to test just for getting past the wall is particularly fair to the standing OL and such either. Sure it'd suck to do the work and finally get past it then get knocked down with the test but the tests are there for a reason and breaking the loyal wall shouldn't mean test-free challenge. Though those sort of scenarios are what put me (and a few others, hopefully they pipe up) off of liking the loyal wall to begin with.

I'll probably come back and clarify later, I'm sure this post is a mess so don't mind me.
Last edited by Claire Gallows on Mon Jul 25, 2016 3:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Spell »

Isn't factions supposed to be something that brings the roleplay back? Why did the Roleplay ever end? Politics, roleplay, what have you. They never left. The only thing that did leave was the crutch that players used to push for their roleplay, instead of doing it for themselves. Matt has been Overlord for how long? He's suffered how many challenges? He's gotten through each of them and still sits as Overlord, and for a good while now hasn't had any challenges. The change meant that the skill of the Overlord reigned supreme instead of hunkering behind a wall. There's still politics in DoS, there's Renegades who will step in against Overlord tests, there's the ability for the Overlord to drop a Loyal to Renegade. There's much that can be used for politics. There's more wheeling and dealing with an Overlord who can be challenged at any time compared to one who hides behind a wall.

Loyal Wall is basically a means for a cluster to stay in power to the point where the Overlord, over cycles, would only be challenged by Warlord Tournament winners. In a way, it became a Mini-Archmage Tournament. There were no incentives to challenge a loyal, because there would be a test, and then you add SoA into the mix. Renegades were scarce, and it seemed that OOC and IC loyalties made sure the status quo was kept.
Claire Farron wrote:In light of a lot of the discussions centering around inclusiveness of newer duelists, I'd be wary of returning to something that pushes them out or whathaveyou.
Not even two months since then. I'm also wondering where the same voices who spoke up against exclusion and how new players are feeling as if it's already hard to achieve rank, let alone title, are.
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Post by Aric Delevingne »

For me personally I feel like I'm so far away from challenging for anything that I've kept out of discussions figuring people with more experience would give better input.

But I don't like this because this is a pretty small community as is, and if a lot of people decided to build a loyalty wall then I feel like that could come across as clique-ish, and then drive away people from even trying to challenge.

I guess I'm not looking at it from a game mechanic view, but just as a view from how it appears being a lower ranked player. The idea doesn't feel inclusive, promotes an "us vs. everyone" mentality, and could make the mood of duels feel oppressive and promote cliques rather than inclusive and promote cooperation.

Also if this is in place and all the barons are loyal, the OL grant is never going to be given away. I guess that's also a possibility now, but seems like there would be extra incentive to not use it if it prevents the OL from getting challenged directly. So there is a game mechanic that can be used with newer players and/or lower ranks that's taken off the table.
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Post by Hope »

I voted yes* but that's only a yes on the condition that it is not a carbon copy of the previous iteration of the Loyal Wall.

I want to quote Aric's post because that is verbatim how I felt when I first started playing the game. My first experience and reaction to the Loyal Wall was wow, you're telling me I have to get to Warlord, get SoA, challenge and lose without ever seeing the Baron if I get interceded on? The answer was yes, so I didn't put time or effort into DoS. Since then I've played more and experienced the game more and have realized that it was a device for more as much as it was for less.

Looking back on it now it was the entire mixture that put me off. SoA and the Loyal Wall were too much, but I think either on their own would be okay. I like Loyal Wall more because it allows for flexibility with play and offers more reasons to play with one another. SoA makes people duel more and I mean that's cool because more dueling but it's not really the same in my mind.

The Loyal Wall as it was had a lot of merit but I think there's room for it to grow. Imagine how it could work with Factions. Maybe allow a Warlord from a Renegade faction to back up his Baron if he is tested in an OL Challenge. Maybe if there are no Renegade Barons, if someone goes after a Baron you allow a Ronin to test an intercession for him. If we open up more avenues for play and we as players are willing to do it, I think there is a lot of great things that can happen without it being the doomsday that I once thought it was.
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Post by Spell »

Queen wrote:Maybe allow a Warlord from a Renegade faction to back up his Baron if he is tested in an OL Challenge.
Currently Renegade Barons can have a Warlord step in for them. It's how Apple got the New Haven Barony from G when he challenged for Overlord. But, this is also brings up a nice idea for a Renegade Perk ( to touch on your later point about a Ronin being able to counter an OL testing a Baron's challenger ).

Why not allow the Renegade's own faction to counter someone challenging their leader? A Warlord within a Renegade Baron's faction stepping in to test a challenger to a Barony. If it's fair for a Loyal to get a test perk, then why not a Renegade? There seems to not be much incentive to be a Renegade where there is a Loyal wall.

This also brings another question in mind, though it's more an observation. Why is there a sudden focus of throwing so many ideas out there instead of focusing on one? The Factions idea could have been the main focus, tested some cycles, and then players could sit down with staff and see what could be done to involve something like a Loyal Wall into it. Something that isn't just a Loyal Wall of the past, but something new.

Right now we're focusing on so many different subjects and theoretically thinking they will fall into place.
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Post by Sabine »

Spell wrote:
This also brings another question in mind, though it's more an observation. Why is there a sudden focus of throwing so many ideas out there instead of focusing on one?
This.

I've kind of dropped out of the conversations because it's all just too much for me personally to wrap my brain around. I'm still trying to understand the rules and politics of the game.

1 change and then the introduction of one of the new player benefits would be nice.

In 6 months or something, maybe add in something else.
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Post by Sylus Kurgen »

Queen wrote:The Loyal Wall as it was had a lot of merit but I think there's room for it to grow. Imagine how it could work with Factions. Maybe allow a Warlord from a Renegade faction to back up his Baron if he is tested in an OL Challenge. Maybe if there are no Renegade Barons, if someone goes after a Baron you allow a Ronin to test an intercession for him. If we open up more avenues for play and we as players are willing to do it, I think there is a lot of great things that can happen without it being the doomsday that I once thought it was.
This is where I'm at in the discussion. There is a lot of potential good to it.

How can we simultaneously cultivate the good to it, make it viable as an option, and make it work with Factions, and keep players from feeling screwed?

I completely understand that it feels like I"m throwing ideas at the wall to see what sticks. I get that. This thread, and the Squire challenge thread, I made into their own streams so as not to derail other discussions. That's sort of it.

Squires being allowed to challenge is dead in the water. However this one, is riding a 50/50.
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Post by Spell »

The thing is. Factions aren't even out yet. It hasn't been tested and vetted to see if it is liked after a trial period. There is not a 100% rule in place with how it will fully be. How can we start work on a Loyal Wall-lite of sorts without knowing how Factions are truly going to work in the first place? This is all theory-crafting on how everything will work together, but there are no reliable data on even one of these ideas.

I understand the want to discuss. But what is there to discuss with how it can link to Factions where Factions aren't even up and running yet?
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Post by Sylus Kurgen »

Spell wrote:I understand the want to discuss. But what is there to discuss with how it can link to Factions where Factions aren't even up and running yet?
It's establishing a timeline.

I'd like to introduce Factions in the October with the Fall Cycle and test it, along with the Overlord Squire. This gives time for Kalamere to fully work on the Warlord Ranking system.

2-3 cycles after that, we can see if Loyal Wall-lite is even worth it. I'd rather have the discussion now, get key elements hammered out, and later discuss if it's still a go.

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Post by Sylus Kurgen »

Tabling this discussion to allow Factions to be focused upon more directly.
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Post by Peaches »

I voted no.

I don't even duel and I voted no.

It was cited that it brings RP; does it really? I've heard all kinds of things that 'bring writing to RoH' but rarely see it. That's not saying it doesn't happen but there is already a lot to base RP off of that doesn't get used; what makes anyone think implementing a Loyal Wall will encourage more RP that already seems stagnant on the boards or for RoH in general?

A lot of other people said basically the same things I want to say, too. You just started in on making dueling more welcoming and 'friendly' to new comers but insist that showing just how HARD it is to become OL (which, btw, if you make OL and have a Loyal Wall you will be OL FOREVER because no one's got time for dat long ol' grind through the Loyal Wall) is a great way to encourage them! Or about how it SOUNDS like a good idea right now, but come a few months from now it will be a lot of sour opinions.

This isn't the presidential campaign. Don't build that wall.
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Post by Kalamere »

Peaches wrote:btw, if you make OL and have a Loyal Wall you will be OL FOREVER because no one's got time for dat long ol' grind through the Loyal Wall)
The discussion is tabled, but I did just want to point out that:

* The once a cyle intercession free grant awarded to the WLT winner would remain in place. So, at least once per cycle the OL would get a challenge, which is the same as the only way the arch-mage gets challenged (albeit twice fewer per year due to cycle length)

* Renegade Barons would continue to have the option to challenge as per usual

The only impact of the loyal wall is in regard to warlord challenges and that only when a majority of the barons have aligned loyal and no renegade is willing to sponsor the warlord's challenge. Given the two points above, however, regarding the WLT winner and renegade barons - the OL remains open to challenge multiple times per cycle.
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