An open letter

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Sylus Kurgen
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An open letter

Post by Sylus Kurgen »

Hello everyone,

I’m your relatively new DoS Coordinator. Since accepting the roll there have been a lot of things brought to me. Not just documents, templates, and links to old rules discussions to be read through and make myself familiar with. What I’ve also had brought to me are thoughts, feelings, concerns, and ideas for debate. Most of the latter, I’ve made into discussion threads for the playerbase at large. I’m enthusiastic about my new hat to wear and want to do what is best and right by everyone that now sees me as one of the Powers That Be.

One thing that most may not know about me, is that I’m a large fan of personal accountability. Don’t point fingers and cast blame at others for why something is the way it is, or why it’s broken. “Why doesn’t that department do its job?”, “Am I the only one working here?”, “When is someone going to train me?” I also understand this is challenging because I try to think and behave this way but find myself backsliding into the familiar coat of passing the buck off on someone else. “Its always been this way.”,”Not my problem”, “Not my job”, “Not my mess”, That’s Victim Talk. Wore that coat for so long it’s comfortable. Know what is the opposite of these questions? “How can I best help improve things?”, “How can I change my way of thinking to have a positive impact?”, “What is the company in need of and how can I help achieve that?”, “How can I improve myself”?

I want to help all of you in making this place welcoming and inviting, and I hope you all are willing to help me achieve my own ideas and goals with the game.

I want new players to know that they can come and talk to me about their concerns personally either through AIM, PMs, or e-mail. I’d rather this, than an elected representative. If a new player doesn’t feel comfortable using the Contact Us forms or reaching out to Coordinators to talk one-on-one, that deeply concerns me. Are we somehow coming off as unapproachable?

Part of making the game more welcoming comes with an open dialogue between Staff and Players. As a Coordinator I can’t really address concerns if players are not willing to bring them to me. When someone comes to me and tells me there are a number of new players that are hesitant to come around and they can’t give me solid numbers on how many and are just vague about the details? I admit it makes me hesitant to believe they’re being genuine. Are they talking about five players or 25? Why do they feel they can’t reach out to me or others?

All of the above has been in the back of my mind for several weeks now. And all of this in mind bleeds into my ideas and what I’m out to accomplish.

When I’m asked why do Veterans enter their lower-ranked alts into tournaments knowing there will be new people involved, my knee-jerk reaction is, “They can.”, my veteran reaction is “It’s a brand new toy that wasn’t around when they started dueling”, my player reaction is “I love competing in tournaments regardless of what name I’m on”.

I'm one of the people who still remembers when Warlord and up had all the toys. The goal was making Warlord so that you could compete in the WLT and begin challenging. Until then, all you had was the grind to the top. The long road. There wasn’t a Talon, there wasn’t a Panther’s Claw, or Ring of Klytus, or All Ranks Tournament, or weekly record resets, they were at the end of the cycle. There were the WLT, the DQ, and the AMT. That was it.

As a veteran there’s this feeling that newer players in their search for a sense of instant gratification want everything handed to them for very little effort. This makes those of us that did it the hard way feel that all of our hard work was for absolutely nothing. The people that have whined the loudest about how hard things were/are have done well, relatively quickly, considering how very little they actually duel. When this group finally reaches the high end of the game, they’ve run out of things to do.

I'm in a small group that thinks if something is worth having, it shouldn't be easy to get. This includes titles like Baron and Overlord. The game needs to keep players engaged or they get bored. And if they get bored they're going to leave. Part of that, for me, is the game should gradually get harder as players climb in it. However, if players have more toys than they know what to do with...they're not going to play with any of them. Where is the happy medium

Squire for the Overlord, Squires being able to Challenge, Factions, I’m not looking at all of these as isolated. I’m looking at all of them in tandem to each other and how they play into the BIG picture for the community. Cogs in a very precise machine. I view that as my job as DoS Coordinator. What's the BIG picture. If players can abuse something, they will. Nepotism is an ongoing battle, but I can't let that consume my considerations. Knowing that this is the reality of the game is something I understand when working through proposals. It goes without saying and doesn’t need to be stated flat out. Not to my mind, anyway. I applied for this position knowing completely that I was going to end up making decisions that are not liked, and others that are hailed as good. I can’t please everyone, nor am I going to bother trying to win everyone over. I’m out to do what I feel is in the benefit of everyone, not a small few and what is good in the long run; not just on a small scale.

By nature, many of us are very judgemental and I know this letter will be picked apart. I know that I can count on negativity coming out first. Along with statements such as nothing has been done yet after the other discussion threads.

There are times I feel that I’m trying too hard. But that's why I have Kalamere. He’s a former Coordinator from back when everything was still in the RDI AoL chat. He's my tempering hand in my decision making. The Old Guard and the Not-So New Guard working together. We don’t always agree, but he helps keep my enthusiasm in check. Which I know will keep me from getting burned out. I can rely on his experience to help me keep on a straight and narrow.

The Tl;Dr? I am here. Talk to me.
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Post by Rakeesh »

Be wary of making arbitrary decisions just for the sake of making decisions. A lot of voices get thrown into the mix, a lot of ideas get tossed around. In the confusion and chaos, you making a hasty decision that appeases nobody but that you believe is some sort of amalgamation of various ideas can actually be the worst way forward.

Always ask yourself, "What is my goal? How does this help achieve my goal? How could this hurt my goal? What are the unintended consequences here?"

These, suggestions to you based on my observations of your administration here and in Hydra in the past. No doubt your intentions are good. Sometimes, it does feel as though you start with one idea, it receives resistance (whether justified or not) and you end up junking that idea and inserting an arbitrary or untested idea without discussing that entirely new idea.

If you are going to be inclusive, as a rule, be entirely inclusive. I'll openly admit that I stopped taking part in your other conversations because you didn't respond to me. I spend a lot of time thinking about arguments, ideas, proposals, and how to talk about those things in a positive, pro-community way. Being ignored over six or seven different simultaneous threads (purposeful or not) will kill my will to participate, for sure.

I'm interested to see how things progress with DoS, and I appreciate your good intentions and desire to communicate. I can't really speak to rule changes as I'm not sure what's changing yet (or to what ends). In my mind, the three core things that feel as though they need the most focus to improve DoS attendance and playability:

- More newbie friendliness, including legitimate admin attempts at marketing broadly to draw in more new players.

- More veteran engagement through added potential politics/roleplay/rank interaction, possibly team/house-oriented additions to such.

- Through all new changes, ensure that the learning curve for rank/fancy/etc rules remain easy to understand and follow and track (in the moment!) for all (especially new) players.

With my firm belief in the following, based on the science of compulsion loops (basic game design theory):

- Quantitative incentives work to encourage a desired behavior or activity.


------

Thank you for your work, Sylus. These thoughts are, obviously, just mine own.
When I am silent, I have thunder hidden inside.

[OOC: Twitter is the best way to stay in touch. <3]
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Re: An open letter

Post by JewellRavenlock »

Sylus Kurgen wrote: I want new players to know that they can come and talk to me about their concerns personally either through AIM, PMs, or e-mail. I’d rather this, than an elected representative. If a new player doesn’t feel comfortable using the Contact Us forms or reaching out to Coordinators to talk one-on-one, that deeply concerns me. Are we somehow coming off as unapproachable?
Yes. You are coming off as incredibly unapproachable when you follow that question with stuff like this:
Sylus Kurgen wrote: As a veteran there’s this feeling that newer players in their search for a sense of instant gratification want everything handed to them for very little effort. This makes those of us that did it the hard way feel that all of our hard work was for absolutely nothing. The people that have whined the loudest about how hard things were/are have done well, relatively quickly, considering how very little they actually duel. When this group finally reaches the high end of the game, they’ve run out of things to do.

I'm in a small group that thinks if something is worth having, it shouldn't be easy to get.
Italics are mine. You say you want new people to approach you themselves. You don't want them to use a representative.

Then you turn around and insult them.

You say they want instant gratification.

You imply that they don't have to work hard for their rank when you talk about "those of us who did it the hard way."

You say there is a small group that think they should have to work hard to get what they want, implying the rest of the people want it the easy way.

And even if that is true (which I'm not saying any of it is), how does saying it welcome ANYONE? Why would that make anyone want to approach you now that they know you feel that way about them?
Sylus Kurgen wrote: By nature, many of us are very judgmental and I know this letter will be picked apart. I know that I can count on negativity coming out first.
Feel free to call me Judgmental Jewell.
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Post by PrlUnicorn »

I think a point has been missed somewhere along the line. I got the impression that part of first post here was about offering suggestions regarding how to improve things not to point out problems and not offer suggestions on how to change things. If all that is offered is criticism with no potential solutions then no headway is made toward making things better.

Visibility is important for those people that take on the coordinator positions. When I see anyone that's a volunteer, regardless of their position, active in live role play, creating events, writing stories, and generally taking part in the community, it tells me that they aren't just talking the talk, they are also walking the walk to support the community. Be out there, once a week, twice a month, or every night, just be out there to lead by example. The Meet and Greet events that Dris has been running are a good example of what I mean and an opportunity to ask questions as well. Maybe, we need an OOC event like it, two or three times a year.

It took me many years to get my first character to Warlord and, later, to Baron. I was and am more interested in the roleplay aspect of things than just racking up WoL. Some people are more interested in the dueling, what we used to call power duelers. Others, prefer the roleplay, and some have found a nice balance of both. Why is this important? Some people want to sit and watch for a while; it's why the Arena has that skybox thread and there have been bleachers and tables as far back as I can remember. Maybe, they want their character there and watching simply because they prefer to learn by observation before diving in. To feel pressured into participating isn't really welcoming. Several callers have this thing mastered, they ask, get an answer, and leave people to do their thing for while if that answer is no.

Things have changed with the idea making the game move along faster. No matter what we try, however, we aren't likely to have the gee whiz cool toys like WoW and other MMOs. Playing in this forum requires use of words and one's imagination. Both are very powerful tools.

--------------------------------------------
If I were in your shoes, Sylus, I would advise new players as follows (yours would obviously be different):

Don't be afraid to have your character(s) interact. All it takes is a greeting to get things started. The ball is then in the other person's court to react or to go on their way. I have been told by some players that they are apprehensive about playing off my characters. When I ask why, I get a variety of answers, some of which confuse me. The one most often used is time served, meaning that I have been around DoS a bit over 20 years. Time spent in a place doesn't make one better at whatever activities are going on there. Taking part in what's going on, however, can.

Don't be afraid to express your opinions or ask questions. Privately to the coordinators is generally the best place to start with an individual issue or question. When participating in board discussions, remember that some people have read discussions on similar topics for a long time (i.e. fancies). Your idea might be fresh and new or same old same old. If it's the latter, it might not be received as warmly as you hope. If that's case, you might need to consider a new perspective on it. Don't allow yourself to feel bullied into being silent when people disagree with you; your opinion is just as valid as theirs.

Remember that PMs, e-mail, and boards are always available for questions. Volunteers are also roleplayers/writers that need their time for creative expression as much as the rest of us. In a chat room, unless it's a time sensitive issue, try to respect their time as you would like your own to be if you were in that position. Interact on the IC level and see what happens.
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Post by Sylus Kurgen »

I want to thank you, Jewell. For proving my point about Personal Accountability among players.

Thank you for your insight Jewell. Coming back to it, I can see where some or even all of my letter came off as condescending, I do. That wasn't my intent, far from it.

Upon reflection, the things I was asking of others...I forgot to ask of myself. It's a difficult task to do. I thank you for having the courage to call me out on it.

When I read the conversations about how RoH as a whole, feels uncomfortable, unwelcoming, I try to ask myself "what's the source?", "Where's it coming from?" The answers REQUIRE players willing to be specific. Being vague doesn't help anyone. We do not need to Name and Shame, instead part of it is just bringing it to the other person's attention. They may not realize they're doing it. Just like I did.

One of the points I tried to make is that dueling NOW, today, is insanely easier than it was in 2004. There are tools available in the here and now that did not exist before. What is harder to do, is find an opponent.

Our community has one dragon to slay, and it requires all of us. Us vs Them. The Versus needs to be put down, and hard. To do that..I think requires something difficult for all of us. To stop identifying ourselves as New or Veteran. That's something I failed to do in trying to be objective. By saying "I'm a veteran" I've already put myself on one side of the line.
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Post by Spell »

Sylus Kurgen wrote:As a veteran there’s this feeling that newer players in their search for a sense of instant gratification want everything handed to them for very little effort. This makes those of us that did it the hard way feel that all of our hard work was for absolutely nothing. The people that have whined the loudest about how hard things were/are have done well, relatively quickly, considering how very little they actually duel. When this group finally reaches the high end of the game, they’ve run out of things to do.
Is all I want to touch on. Because this feels like it could be an attack toward those who only recently started dueling 6 or so years ago, and who are the most active title challengers.

Care to go into detail about this post?

Because I'd like to point out. There was a time when the Veteran players stopped following the ruleset. Opals were being challenged for without duelists keeping activity duels ( the same with Opals keeping their titles without dueling for cycles ). It was not an issue of new players wanting more lax challenging and title upkeep rules. It *was* new players who spoke up wanting challenges and challenge upkeep to be a requirement. It's why we have Non-eligible and Inactive statuses on the standings. It's why the Warlord Tournament has duel requirements again after a time of the rule being no longer used, along with the Diamond Quest getting the same rule a year or so later after the WLT one was re-established.

To repeat your own comment, it's really not a new vs old thing. Because even some veterans may want things easier for their own gain, or to have things changed so they can hold a title longer, etc. The same for new players who might like things easier so they can gain some ground in a game they are being introduced too. No one likes being at the bottom of a totem pole, and it takes a while for the PVP mindset to come into play -- there will be winners and there will be losers. Not everyone can be a title holder, not everyone will be able to make rank, but there is no reason for them to be belittled for simply speaking up. So I thank you for apologizing.
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Post by JewellRavenlock »

Thank you for your post, Sylus.

I really appreciate it :) I agree that the us vs. them and new vs. old doesn't accomplish anything except for dividing people.
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Post by Sylus Kurgen »

Spell wrote:
Sylus Kurgen wrote:As a veteran there’s this feeling that newer players in their search for a sense of instant gratification want everything handed to them for very little effort. This makes those of us that did it the hard way feel that all of our hard work was for absolutely nothing. The people that have whined the loudest about how hard things were/are have done well, relatively quickly, considering how very little they actually duel. When this group finally reaches the high end of the game, they’ve run out of things to do.
Is all I want to touch on. Because this feels like it could be an attack toward those who only recently started dueling 6 or so years ago, and who are the most active title challengers.

Care to go into detail about this post?

Because I'd like to point out. There was a time when the Veteran players stopped following the ruleset. Opals were being challenged for without duelists keeping activity duels ( the same with Opals keeping their titles without dueling for cycles ). It was not an issue of new players wanting more lax challenging and title upkeep rules. It *was* new players who spoke up wanting challenges and challenge upkeep to be a requirement. It's why we have Non-eligible and Inactive statuses on the standings. It's why the Warlord Tournament has duel requirements again after a time of the rule being no longer used, along with the Diamond Quest getting the same rule a year or so later after the WLT one was re-established.

To repeat your own comment, it's really not a new vs old thing. Because even some veterans may want things easier for their own gain, or to have things changed so they can hold a title longer, etc. The same for new players who might like things easier so they can gain some ground in a game they are being introduced too. No one likes being at the bottom of a totem pole, and it takes a while for the PVP mindset to come into play -- there will be winners and there will be losers. Not everyone can be a title holder, not everyone will be able to make rank, but there is no reason for them to be belittled for simply speaking up. So I thank you for apologizing.
You and I spoke over this at length last night and I feel that we see more eye-to-eye because of it. However I'll post what I said to you here, for those that may be waiting for a response.

I don't remember which discussion it was, but I do remember it was Rakeesh that said..think of fellow duelists like classes in school. When you first find dueling, you're a Freshman. The Warlords and so on that are on the scene are your Seniors and Alumni. Keep that in mind as I elaborate..

Through debate and trial and error, one group of Seniors creates a series of rules to address concerns.

Fast forward and that group of former Freshman are now Warlords, they've climbed through under the old rules, didn't like the struggle. So they call for the leadership to make adjustments, make certain rules more lax. Another group of Freshman come in under this set of rules. The former Alum look on going 'Dafuq?" Some leave, others adapt to the new way of doing business.

Next group of Freshman make it to Senior status, and turn the difficulty back up. The previous group of Seniors aren't happy because their work feels undermined, the group of Seniors before that are applauding.

For me, this is kind of the best way I can demonstrate some of the struggles on RoH

You and I came to the agreement that it is less about Old vs New, but more a struggle for control of the difficulty settings. Casual vs Competitive. I'll explain further below for those that want to read a book. This could get tangential. Fair warning.

Last estimate I saw, there's maybe 30 people dueling, but only perhaps 7-10 are challenging regularly. Most of the 7-10 are our extremely competitive duelists, they're the ones that don't bat an eyelash at jumping through hoops to get a title.

We also see individuals that refuse to accept duels because "I want to duel, but it's probably an alt of [person they don't like OOC], so I'm just going to hang out." And this person gathers others around them that feel the same, they only duel each other. I can't argue with that because, can't force someone to engage another person they don't want to engage. Until they enter a sanctioned tournament and then it's all up to luck.

However this breeds things like "Yay, I won a title...crap [person I don't like] is challenging me, I'm going to just retire the title and avoid facing them completely." This passes the buck onto someone else. If a player doesn't like another player and doesn't want to duel them...then perhaps putting yourself into a position with a giant target on your back wasn't the best move.

Contention comes with the more casual players that are, "I want to challenge, but I don't want to bend over backwards to do it. I just want to challenge, fight the one person, win or lose, and call it a day. I just don't want drama." Which is fine, that's a reasonable expectation. Just, don't disappear for months on end afterwards or stop coming around the duels on that character name except for the bare minimum to keep from getting stripped.

I understand the logic behind arguments like, "It's not the competitive players that go an entire cycle without dueling and then magically want to compete in a high end tournament without having come around in 5ever." And that's fair and reasonable as well. A competitive duelist has been plugging away for months, and then some mysterious stranger comes out of the blue, enters the tournament, wins a title prize, gets it, and then disappears again. It's complete BS.

I love good character drama and tension that creates conflict for engaging stories. However the reality is that most of the drama we see is player vs player and that drives people away or keeps them from getting involved.

I understand the sentiment behind, "You know that the old Loyal Wall only benefited duelists that wanted to sit on Overlord for 2 years and never come around under that character, but we all saw them coming in week after week on another Warlord or lower."

All of the above scenarios have led to the discussions over Peer Wins, SoA, the current duel requirements for entrance into tournaments. A number of highly vocal casual duelists wanted to be able to just come and go as they pleased, enter tournaments, win titles, all without being required to be consistently active. Not just coming around the rooms and playing, but dueling as well.

From my perspective, winning a title...is like signing a social contract. You're in possession of this community status. You're obligated to be a regular presence in the play rooms, on that character, supporting others. If you're not willing to step up to the plate and be at bat to do those things? Then what was the purpose of going through the circus of challenging? Because you could?

At the end of the day, Casual duelists simply outnumber the Competitive duelists. Finding the balance between just casual enough, and competitive enough, to keep both parties completely engaged in RoH is the goal. However, part of that too is the understanding that a reality of the struggle among the community a lot of us want things in place that make the game better for ourselves. We have players that want things so casual that there isn't any expectations, they can come and go as they want, win titles, with little backlash if they forget to check the forums for a month. we also have the group that's out dueling 7 nights a week and keeping others engaged. Neither side is truly right or wrong. But rather than fighting over the style of play...it's coming together to find the right fit. And that's a war.
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Post by Delahada »

Sylus Kurgen wrote:From my perspective, winning a title...is like signing a social contract. You're in possession of this community status. You're obligated to be a regular presence in the play rooms, on that character, supporting others. If you're not willing to step up to the plate and be at bat to do those things? Then what was the purpose of going through the circus of challenging? Because you could?
I just wanted to offer an opposing perspective, because I disagree that having a title obligates anyone to be socially active among the community. If being Overlord, Baron, Diamond, Opal, Archmage, or Keeper comes with the expected requirement of role-playing on a regular basis just to be seen and engage people, I don't want it. I suspect I'm not the only one who might feel that way, too.

Maybe I'm what you'd consider a "casual duelist," but that doesn't mean I don't have ambition. I've been dueling since 2009 on this character (and few others) and have yet to achieve a DoS or DoF title. I've accepted the fact that I'm just not as good as other duelists, despite people telling me otherwise. If I was as good as people claim, I'd have unlocked all those higher rank achievements already, and kept them. But I haven't.

Would I like to gain rank and get a title? Hell yes I would! But not if it means people are going to expect me to RP and duel all the time just to be a presence. We all know Sal's not going to throw fancy fun parties like Sabine does, if he ever gets there. I prefer staying true to my character and his personality, which is asocial and uncomfortable being in the spotlight. He only wants the title to say he did it. Not for fame or glory, but personal improvement.

I don't think these kinds of opposing viewpoints necessarily put the community at "war." I think it's perfectly possible to find a balance everybody can enjoy. So far, I, personally, don't see any need for "improvement" with the rules. I have zero complaints about the current system, other than it being hard, but that's my problem not yours.

I've been dueling for seven years and I've not earned a single title yet (with the exception of one alt in DoM that I don't play with any regularity whatsoever). I say this, because I feel a handful of "new" people get discouraged about not being able to climb the ranks. Well, you're not alone. Don't get discouraged. Keep trying. Have fun with it. Use it to make your characters and their stories more interesting.
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Post by G »

Sylus Kurgen wrote:From my perspective, winning a title...is like signing a social contract. You're in possession of this community status. You're obligated to be a regular presence in the play rooms, on that character, supporting others. If you're not willing to step up to the plate and be at bat to do those things? Then what was the purpose of going through the circus of challenging? Because you could?
This is going to be a little bit of an irritated post, I apologize in advance.

I disagree with this, as well. Winning a title is in no way nor should it ever be an obligation to be a regular presence in a play room. You're obligated to go to work. You're obligated to be a good family member. You're obligated to do a great number of real things.

Nothing, no title, nor any game, will *ever* make me feel like I am obligated to do *anything* for any reason. Games are supposed to be fun, and the moment you add the word "obligation" to something, for me, that makes it less fun and more work. If I want to hold a title, I'm going to do it because it's FUN for me, whether or not I show up in a room on a regular basis, which as we all know, was not the case.

I feel like obligation was a very poor choice of words here, because I'm damn sure not obligated to do anything just because I hold a title. Would it be nice to see title holders more often in the rooms? Sure, but it's not a requirement, nor should it ever appear, from anyone, as one.

Tangent:
When I started dueling, Barons or Overlords were challenged based on "inactivity" if they didn't get a duel within two or three weeks. Screw that, that's a joke now. Now people don't show up and go 6 months without a challenge. If someone wants to give an appearance of a more active titleholder, and you have the qualifications, do something about it.

Case in point: Aya -vs- Sabine. I held that title for about 6 months with no challenge and only got my activity duel, which is the definition of inactive duelist, in my opinion. Sabine challenged(Maybe not for Aya being an inactive duelist, but that would have been MORE than enough an acceptable reason to challenge) and won. I have no doubt that Sabine will be far more active than I would have been. But not one person would have likely told me "You know, Aya is obligated to be around more often" because they would have gotten shut down hard.

Sorry if I sound angry or pissy or what have you, but I, personally, have an issue with anyone saying someone is obligated to do anything in a game who aren't actually working. Callers are volunteers who are obligated to call duels, that's it. DoS/M/F admins are obligated to ensure smooth running of their respective sports and maintain a pleasant playing experience(paraphrase), that's it. The rest of the staff are obligated to ensure a working website that is easy to access, that's it.

Players aren't obligated to do anything, not even be polite(Though they really, honestly, definitely should be because if they aren't, negativity and drama ensues.)

If you read this far, I'm Sorry, this just kinda set me off a little bit. I don't expect much agreement nor am I asking for a rallying behind me or whatever. This is just my opinion on a matter of obligation.
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Post by Spell »

This is why there's duel requirements. It's a good baseline rule that requires players to at least duel once per cycle. If any players in the community deem this as not enough, they can challenge for the title.

What is "enough" differs from person to person. A title holder may not have time to duel, so they instead write with the title on the forums - which are already a barren wasteland with only trickles of content. So these title holders adding to it at least sparks some activity.

Other title holders might not duel much, but they host squire tournaments or something else of the sort. Activity differs between person to person. Being even a small presence, even if it's one duel a cycle and one post with the title, seems to be the trend. It's what I personally do on some alts, or I go around and RP/Duel off and on in rooms.

There are also a small handful of the current title base that also calls duels during the week.

I understand the want to see active title holders. It's honestly one of the reasons why others and I spoke up about duel-requirements to join tournaments, keep titles, etc. But we knew that this is a very, very casual game - and that maybe someone can't duel for months on end. But one duel is not much to ask for to keep hold of a title. It was a compromise thought up that best supported casual duelists who could not come out, and competitive duelists who wanted to see some sort of accountability when it came to challenging for titles or joining tournaments.
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Post by Kalamere »

Sylus Kurgen wrote:From my perspective, winning a title...is like signing a social contract. You're in possession of this community status. You're obligated to be a regular presence in the play rooms, on that character, supporting others. If you're not willing to step up to the plate and be at bat to do those things? Then what was the purpose of going through the circus of challenging? Because you could?
On the other hand, it's one of the few things in that post that I do agree with. Not to nitpick much, but I think you've got some bad assumptions and generalizations in there. Anyway though, as to the obligation of title holders to be active, it is a thing many of us hope for.

I grant you "obligation" is perhaps too strong a word, but the sense isn't that far off.

The point is not that you need to start throwing parties or write up a title story line. Those things are cool and fun to see, but simply being around and playing your anti-social, spotlight avoiding self is plenty. Just letting people see you here and there; taking a duel every now and then. It's not an ask to ever be untrue to the character - only to have that character continue showing up.

Whenever I've held a title, I'd felt that I should try to make a least a weekly appearance. One of the reasons I've argued for letting inactive players enter tournaments that could award them a title is my hope that they will feel the same if they win it, because I think that many do.

The titles aren't just game rewards, they are role-playing tools. If the tool ends up in the hands of someone that just goes and hides it under their bed, then it's not really doing anyone any good. It's a shame to see that and it leads to further rules around what constitutes activity in both the form of challenging for and holding onto the titles.
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Post by Delahada »

Kalamere wrote:The titles aren't just game rewards, they are role-playing tools. If the tool ends up in the hands of someone that just goes and hides it under their bed, then it's not really doing anyone any good.
Once, I won the Talon of Redwin, on this character. I even wrote a little story about it involving giving the knife a "place of honor" among Sal's collection. I don't remember whether or not I dueled much after the fact, but I do know I never role-played him having the Talon on his person or ever using it. Not even sure I used the mod. So... I guess I went and hid the title under the bed. To me, it was worth simply earning the title. It was an accomplishment. That's all I wanted, all my character wanted. The Talon itself was just a pretty trophy to temporarily have until next cycle when someone else earned it. I've not entered the Talon since with Sal, and probably never will, because it's a fulfilled achievement. Giving someone else a chance.

I did something similar with being Jaycy's squire (of Seaside, with the glaive) way back when. It was nice having the achievement, the place of honor, but I couldn't justify my character actually using the weapon because long before that I'd written it into him that he and magical/enchanted items didn't get along. I tried writing another story -- "blooded" -- to explain him finding a way to use it, but I never finished it and honestly think maybe I had him use the glaive twice, tops.

Being Jaycy's squire turned into a whole bunch of storyline fodder that was fun and memorable, but that's another matter entirely.

I mentioned this to Sylus previously, in private. If, by some small miracle, I ever managed to get to Warlord, I feel like what the above quote is telling me is that I shouldn't challenge for a Barony or for Overlord at all. The only reason my character (presently) would want to is simply to earn the personal achievement. "I did it. I climbed the ranks. I earned this title." And if it weren't punishable in the rules, I'd probably have him immediately give up the title as soon as he earned it. Because keeping a barony isn't something he cares for. Only earning it.

All that pretty much removes all motivation for me even wanting to earn rank. It would be nice to finally get up there, but nothing much is inspiring me to push for it. Just my own personal, singular viewpoint here.
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Post by Spell »

Delahada wrote:I mentioned this to Sylus previously, in private. If, by some small miracle, I ever managed to get to Warlord, I feel like what the above quote is telling me is that I shouldn't challenge for a Barony or for Overlord at all. The only reason my character (presently) would want to is simply to earn the personal achievement. "I did it. I climbed the ranks. I earned this title." And if it weren't punishable in the rules, I'd probably have him immediately give up the title as soon as he earned it. Because keeping a barony isn't something he cares for. Only earning it.
That's how my character Nayun views the titles as well. It's not the title itself that matters, it's the fight that brings about the title. Once that fight is over, it's done. The title is a prize and nothing more beyond it. The title itself isn't honorable, it's the chance to fight the title-holder that is.

Andrea's FireStars holder now. She could give a rats ass about what other title holders and duelists think of her. After all she's achieved she's at the point of doing what she damn well pleases because that's what she's evolved into.

Jesse, this character, is the Keeper of Fire. Has been for a year plus. I only duel once a cycle on her because each and every one of my Tuesdays is spent calling DoM. There's other days of the week where I duel, but I'd rather spend it doing other things. As a title holder who calls, I feel I'm doing my part to help the community thrive without being told to come in and duel once a week, or to roleplay. Because, In a way, I'm already doing that as a caller. Hell, DoM is 2 cycles for every 1 cycle in DoF/DoS, so in a way a DoM title holder is dueling at least one duel more than what is required by DoF/DoS now.

While Overlord I had Nayun more active in the sport. Allowing low ranks to fight me, at their level, so they could try for the rookie of the year achievement. I was active with her on the boards, then finally had her drop all Loyal barons to renegade to create drama in the sport. Sadly, I lost to MATT (Mr. Six defenses currently), so the first time a renegade queue against the OL happened was cut short. This was all my choice and I wasn't prompted by some ideal that I should have to do all this because I'm a title holder. I did it because I wanted to.

I'd like to not hope that players will win a title and do something with it, because I know not everyone is the same, so simply hoping they will at least duel once to keep up with the requirement rules is enough for me. Beyond that? I don't care how others play with their titles. It's for them to choose and have fun with it.
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Post by Sabine »

RE: title holders being seen.

I used to think "Well if they hold a title, they should be present!" or "They are just getting titles because they are greedy and want to sit on them so no one else can have them."

And then as I've stated before, life happened... and suddenly I could not be as active as I once was. Just because I can't duel as much doesn't mean my character doesn't still have her own ambitions and things she wants to accomplish, which includes getting every Barony just to prove herself, to herself.

Sabine isn't always friendly or outgoing or into having parties and being out just to be seen. A lot what she does is part of the Baroness Beauty storyline and because her contract makes her have to do these things. She has a love-hate relationship with the grind. I'm not going to force my character to duel all the time when I know she has reasons she doesn't want to at that time or as much. And then there are times I don't want to duel because I have limited RP time and would rather work on a part of her story elsewhere.

Additionally, sometimes people continue to challenge because there is simply nothing more they can do on that character duel-wise, they are kind of at the top and the only thing to do is challenge for Baronies or OL. Or there is nothing going on with others, so they might as well challenge. We go through challenge lulls around here and someone has a Warlord alt that might as well challenge because character X has held a Barony for 6+ months without being challenged. See Aya. I challenged her just because it seemed like no one was. IC Sabine just wanted the Barony because it's close to her house. I'm a title holder again but I probably won't be seen dueling multiple times a week. Between sub-calling, life, calling challenges/tournaments, and other stories, I have to spread myself around which means less dueling than maybe you (General) think I should be doing.

Players may make an alt to start over so to speak because they want to go through the story telling of climbing the ranks on a different character. They may be bored with their high rank character because there is no one else to challenge them or no one is.

Honestly, you (general) would probably get a big F-YOU from me if you tried to tell me I need to be more active on my Baron character "to be seen" vs being on my other character whose story I am trying to tell. I'm still there supporting the duels.

Following up on what Sal said: My character too views titles and achievements as a personal thing. She's not much about the fame or glory. She has 1 contract and has found money can be useful and so she keeps up with that but over all, she duels and tries to win because it's a big deal to her.

She doesn't care much about weapons/items that can be won with achievements because she has things she prefers to use and she's a creature of habit. Additionally, many of the weapons awarded are too big for her/don't work for her. Also, I didn't realize until like... one week before the next PC that the PC actually gave Sabine a useable thing. lol. I just thought it was a profile badge/achievement to say your character has, which is fine by me.

But I have never earned a tournament win before the Spring PC, that was exciting for me and my character regardless if she used the PC mod IC. A "career highlight" so to speak.

I'm rambling...

TL'DR:

I'll duel when I can/when my character wants to.

I'll use mods, wins, ranks, titles, special weapons, etc, how it works best for my character.

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“We spoke eternal things that cannot die.” -Charles Baudelaire, from The Balcony; Fleurs du Mal (tr. by Roy Campbell), 1857
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